Recent visit to Detroit - insight into race relations? (Coleman: condo, daycare)

[Bondurant]

I could go on and on about race relations in Detroit and the '67 riots. But I will keep it simple and refer interested persons to the book Violence in the Model City: The Cavanagh Administration, Race Relations, and the Detroit Riot of 1967 by Sidney Fine.

[Retroit]

Heck, I'm a 41 year old man and I've gotten "cat calls" from women, black and white and all ages. Never thought of it in racial terms. Just some horny women taking a chance on a cute guy (). Usually I just smile, wave, and say "sorry, I gotta go". If these men wanted to rape you, they would not have given you ample time to get away.

[Cheeto]

Originally Posted by Emmerage

I'm interested in understanding a bit more about the dynamic between black and white in Detroit. I know quite a bit of the history of race relations in the area, and I am not looking to start a blame game. What I am more interested in is interpreting a particular social situation in Detroit as an outsider.

**Just as a background: I'm from Sydney, Australia, and although we have unsafe areas and some strained relations with some racial groups there isn't anything on the scale of the African American/White American interaction. There are probably only a handful of genuinely segregated streets in the whole city, even fewer of which would be unsafe to walk down as a white person. I grew up in a public housing project in a country town in Australia which wasn't a very safe area - about half "white trash" and half Aboriginal Australians (who have similar social issues to Native Americans), so I have a pretty keen street sense for someone of my age and education.**

I just recently made a short trip to Detroit, for the unfortunate purpose of researching urban decay. Many people told me beforehand that I'd be lucky not to get mugged/raped/killed, but lots of other people (namely, the friends I stayed with) were much more relaxed about a white girl visiting the city on her own. Even so, at the last minute I recruited a male friend to travel around with me photographing some of the (many) urban ruins in the area.

The first few days were fine, we had no hassles. We visited the downtown areas, Michigan Central Station and the Packard plant. Being around the plant felt a little unsafe, but no one hassled us at all. We drove through some neighbourhoods up to and including 8 Mile which were extremely run down and got out and took pictures. Still no hassles. We went out to Highland Park and even though we'd been warned that it wasn't safe off Woodward Ave, we still got not hassles - although here I really noticed that we were the only white people on the streets.

It wasn't until the very last day we were there that we experienced any trouble - and this is mainly what I wanted to ask about. Up until this point I had found Detroit to be very creepy because it is so desolate and bleak, but I didn't have enough information to have felt too unsafe (or at least any moreso than you do when wandering a wasteland of abandoned buildings).

We were hoping to get a look at the Lee Plaza hotel, which I gather is in a bad neighbourhood (I couldn't tell what was good or bad outside downtown). My friend was going to do his Laundry about two blocks down the main street, so he dropped me off to look at the hotel. Maybe it was bad luck or (more likely) it was the fact that I was on my own, but straight away I started attracting unwanted attention.

I checked out the building a bit, but was starting to feel uneasy being on my own so I went back to the main road and headed straight for the laundry. This was the middle of the day on W Grand Boulevard. People everywhere. Mostly black - but white and asian too. Right next door to the Plaza, outside the church, a guy came straight up to me and said "Hey Baby". He just seemed like the usual weirdo, so I just said "Hi" and made a point of moving away. No big deal. This happens in Australia.

But almost as soon as he had wandered off, another guy in a car called out to me. I ignored him, he called out a bit more then drove off. It was starting to get a bit weird. Especially when another guy changed lanes and slowed down to call out to me: another "Hey baby". By this stage, only halfway to my destination, I was getting a bit alarmed. Still, I theorised, this is the middle of the day - and the two cars weren't exactly bombs, but new, late models. The guys didn't look to sleazy, despite the fact that they were heckling me. What was going on here?

The second car drove by, then coasted to a stop a block or so ahead of me. I ignored it. The guy then got out and comes straight up to me, half smiling and says "I said HEY BABY". I looked straight at him and said: "Hey. I am going to the laundry right over there to meet my boyfriend". The guy just shrugged and got into his (new, shiny, clean) car, but the exchange wasn't exactly pleasant.

Now, those few things I could have just put down to bad timing and maybe just a cultural thing - it was dumb of me to walk down that street on my own, and maybe if you do that in some areas you just get hassled. However, not an hour later my friend and I were checking out the Lee Plaza building. My friend had jumped through an open window to see what was inside, but as I wasn't interested in going in I stayed outside to take some pictures. I heard a car come up behind me and slow down but, as I would in Australia, I just ignored it. Then came the cat-calls "Hey, she's got a nice booty. Bit small though". I ignored them - I guess in Sydney I would have just returned the heckling, but I had no idea of the situation - maybe it was dangerous? I thought they would just drive off once the light ahead had gone green.

No such luck.

They kept calling out, getting more and more obscene. They obviously wanted a response, but I wasn't sure what to give. I still couldn't tell how much danger I was in, especially since this was starting to seem like a neighbourhood sport. Eventually, I called out to my friend and the guys drove off the minute they saw him.

Again - what was going on here? I mean, surely this can't be a come on. Surely they don't think I am a prostitute or anything in my baggy jeans and T-shirt with a camera (which I was quite prepared to lose if anyone tried to mug me). What are these guys trying to achieve? I was totally torn between feeling like I just didn't get the cultural situation, and feeling like I had narrowly escaped getting snatched off the street. Was it just a racial thing I don't get (ie:white girls will just get verbally hassled in these places), or was there some appropriate response I was meant to give? Should I have just called the cops?

I'm not comfortable doing it, but since it's the point of the post I will also clarify that all these guys were black.

Two people I spoke to about this offered totally different opinions - the guy I was staying with said it's just a thing that happens in Detroit, and you are meant to "give sass" back. There's a kind of social interaction between black and white culture in Detroit, especially in relation to women and although it's not respectful he claims that even black salesmen on the street will approach women this way. It sounds weird to me, but there it is.

The other person, a friend from Chicago, totally freaked out and said I was probably in danger of being kidnapped and raped or killed and couldn't believe I didn't call the police. (The thing is, I didn't feel like I was in that much danger even though it was a bit upsetting to be verbally hassled like that. Maybe I'm just in denial).

So, basically, I am hoping for an insight into this kind of behaviour. What was the expected response, if there is one? What exactly is going on here? Was I really stupid, or is this really a uniquely Detroit thing? I'm still totally baffled.

Looking forward to replies,

Em

Simple explanation, you were in Detroit! A white girl walking down Grand Blvd. (depending on where on Grand) is gonna stand out a little. Most areas near there the only white chicks you see on the streets are hookers, and regerdless of what you were wearing (contrary to movies hookers don't have a dress code), I imagione that's what these guys thought was going on.

[Empyre]

I've just been reviewing my notes and found a reference to this post - had completely forgotten about it!

Thanks to all who responded, I'll try to respond generally to everyone, and update at the same time for anyone who reads this thread later.

In terms of researching abandoned buildings - yes, I know it's been done. My research consists of an autoethnographic approach to the detritus of Western cultures post-WWII, and as such requires that I visit and experience sites of decay. It's not so much a situation of going around trying to work out why these places are abandoned (honestly well beyond the scope of any single project), but rather what the process and state of abandonment is like, and what broader socio-historical currents might lead to this state, specifically in relation to capitalist modes of production, cultures of consumption, and linear histories which focus on progress into a relative void.

Detroit is a fascinating city for that kind of focus, because its decline is directly as a result of a major collapse in manufacturing (brought on by racial tensions, yes, but more basically by the simple loss of jobs and economic stability), as an aspect of the process of obsolescence which is part of consumer culture. This is what makes the decay especially relevant to my study.

I understand all of the complexities of safety in and around abandoned buildings (this is what I get paid to do, afterall), so thanks for all the tips (not so much for the criticisms) - but I do know how to assess and negotiate abandoned sites (I had to go through special clearance at my uni to visit Chernobyl, so I've done it all inside and backwards).

As far as cultural or racial elements, my main query was really around what was actually going on. As someone who has a good sense for danger, developed throughout my childhood in a rough neighbourhood, but also as a long-term resident of the inner-city, I never really felt like it was anything other than a bit of a misunderstanding on my part, and a good lesson in safety in areas like this (ie: never be on my own, if only because I stand out more, not necessarily because I would be at a massively increased risk).

It seems that it's probably a combination of things: Being female and also white does mean that I would stand out a bit in most inner-city areas of Detroit; there is an established practice of cat-calling from cars etc., in American culture in general, which is different to (similar) practices I am familiar with in Australia (we definitely get the calls and whistles, and it depends where you are, but in Australia I am really comfortable and, not unexpectedly, just "get" what is going on and respond appropriately); I probably stood out more because I was clearly not from around there.

One of the main reasons I posted was because I just wasn't sure how to take the whole situation. Bearing in mind that Detroit is the kind of place where every usual rule, sense and feeling is suspended by the completely surreal and generally threatening impression that the city gives the visitor, I had real trouble picking the "safe" and "unsafe" areas of the city. In somewhere like New York or Chicago, I found it pretty easy to know what was what - it's not that different to areas of Sydney that I know well. Detroit has so many of the typical indicators (deserted streets, boarded up buildings, badly-kept roads and gardens, empty shop-fronts, graffiti, burnt out cars etc.,etc.,etc.,) that one place looks as unsafe as any other - but those indicators don't really have much to do with the safety (or otherwise) of an area. If anything, Highland Park was more vibrant and busy than other, safer, places (like the neighbourhood we stayed in). I think this is one of the reasons that I couldn't work out what was safe and what wasn't.

I don't believe all the hype about everywhere in Detroit being a killing-field - It's like so many dysfunctional places, where homicides are high, but usually involve people who know one another. Yes, I am sure that car-jackings and muggings are higher, and due to gang activity etc., there are more likely to be weapons involved, so the outcomes are often worse, but I think that statistically Detroit feels a lot less safe for visitors than it actually is.

As far as race/culture goes, I'm still not sure. At no stage am I suggesting that violence, sexual assault, come-ons etc., are particularly associated with black culture; neither am I suggesting that I attracted these responses just because I was a white girl on the street in Detroit. I also don't think that there is anything inherently associated with mainstream black culture that necessarily engenders these sorts of responses. However, a few people responded to this thread in a way that suggests to me that they think all black guys in Detroit hang out in cars selling drugs and looking for prostitutes, and just can't help themselves screaming out at white girls when they see them. I think this is completely incorrect, and this isn't really the response I was hoping for.

My instinct is basically that these are guys who do think this behaviour is acceptable, and that in terms of a ghetto culture or similar in Detroit there is probably a kind of masculinity that produces that kind of reaction to any woman who looks like an easy or willing target. I don't think there is necessarily any really aggressive intent behind the cat-calling etc., it's just a practice that a certain group engages in, and it doesn't present in the ways that I am most used to. I also think that because I was out of place, I was more of a target than local girls might be. I also do think that there are expected responses, and because this practice is unfamiliar to me, I didn't know how to respond, and so the situation was escalated, appearing stranger and more threatening than it actually was.

[TaylorRothschild]

Originally Posted by Emmerage

My instinct is basically that these are guys who do think this behaviour is acceptable, and that in terms of a ghetto culture or similar in Detroit there is probably a kind of masculinity that produces that kind of reaction to any woman who looks like an easy or willing target. I don't think there is necessarily any really aggressive intent behind the cat-calling etc., it's just a practice that a certain group engages in, and it doesn't present in the ways that I am most used to. I also think that because I was out of place, I was more of a target than local girls might be. I also do think that there are expected responses, and because this practice is unfamiliar to me, I didn't know how to respond, and so the situation was escalated, appearing stranger and more threatening than it actually was.

Personally, I think you were right to listen to your body's signals. Our unconscious mind does a pretty good job of looking out for us.

[Briolat21]

I think you are right in that - you were in an unfamilliar area, with a situation you feared, but didn't really expect, and possibly your confusion/lack of confidence projected itself. And there are always bullies willing to hassle someone (esp. a pretty girl) who looks weak -- even if its just meant in a teasing sort of way.

I used to go to college down by the Mexican border, back in the days when that didn't mean you'd be killed. I'm short, I'm blonde - and my friends and I would go down to Juarez during the day to buy cheap booze. (College students - what else do they think of??).

The first time I crossed the border, it was maybe 105 degrees. I didn't think anything of it, I wore the early '90s version of daisy dukes (meaning I was fully covered, but they were short), sandals, a sports bra and a shirt tied up. I mean - it was 105 degrees!

Two things I learned -- at that time at least, American girls only went to Juarez at night to dance in the clubs. We were the only ones on the street in the middle of the day.

Secondly, while not dressed remotely like a ****, if you're going to go across the border into an area your not familliar with in short shorts and a shirt tied up, you'd better damn well be able to smile, laugh off the comments, and stand your ground.

We walked a gauntlet of about 6 blocks of "Hey chica", "Bonita Seniorita", etc... etc.. Old guys, young guys, taxi-guys. Some said with slightly more lecherous intent than others.

We never felt physically threatened, no one ever tried to corner us, but coming from staid midwestern backgrounds, I have to say - it was an unusual experience. Importantly, I think - we never looked down at the ground, we always looked the men in the eye, nodded and smiled or laughed at what we decided to consider compliments, and *kept* walking.

I think if we'd acted afraid, or acted unsure of ourselves and our ultimate destinations, the chatter would have gotten worse.

I've never had similar issues in Detroit, but honestly, I haven't been out walking by myself in Detroit since the '80's when I was 15, and when I was 15 nobody would have been catcalling me. (I looked 8).

I did have similar issues in Chicago in the '90s.. Handled the same way. Acknowledge the compliment, act like you have every right to be there, and just keep on with your business.

I can't say you were or weren't in danger in Detroit. We moved away 4 years ago, and possibly things have changed that much in that time with the economic downturn. If so, how very sad. I will say that up until that time, I never felt unsafe in any part of the city I went through, and I drove through all parts as construction on I-94 and I-96 would often leave me with interesting detours through what i'm sure people would say were less desirable parts of the city.

However, I was born/bred 15 minutes from the Detroit border on the East side and also never felt that locking doors/rolling windows up was the appropriate reaction to crossing Alter road - not even during the 1980's car-jack-a-palooza.

Its a big city. Respect it. Don't get cornered. But don't cower in fear. Cowering is rarely an appropriate or wise reaction in any situation that hasn't already escalated into an actual violent attack.

[DShirley]

Originally Posted by Bondurant

I could go on and on about race relations in Detroit and the '67 riots. But I will keep it simple and refer interested persons to the book Violence in the Model City: The Cavanagh Administration, Race Relations, and the Detroit Riot of 1967 by Sidney Fine.

The history of race relations in Detroit is the reason why the metro area is segregated, and is reinforced by white social habits of residential development and economic investment. As a African-American from the metro area and very familiar with the surrounding tri-county communities, the competition for scarce employment exacerbates the situation (common in any multi-racial culture). The recent jobs sprawl report published by the Detroit Free Press around May of 2013 only clarifies how bad race relations are and where economic development is occurring.

So what is the solution? Part of the answer is economic investment and revitalization of Detroit in terms of jobs and job training - or who is willing to invest in black human capital?? The other part of the equation deals with white fear and historic social animosity towards blacks, but not just blacks but any non-white minority in general. Historically, blacks have always sought full social integration (granted black intellectual thoughts on integration wrestled with the view points of militant vice nonviolent protest). Not so with whites, the history of this nation proves that - slavery solidified in the minds (there is a historical theorization from the 19th century of black inferiority that has survived into this 21st century in addition to the fact that racial hatred is taught and passed down generationally) of many whites that persist today that blacks are simply inferior beings. As the dominant race which controls the vast majority of economic wealth to grow the nation, a collective "choice" to change white perceptions of the worth and value of blacks (or simply minorities in general) must be made to improve race relations, but unfortunately that is not the accepted collective thought. The prevailing perception appears to be that blacks have no value (e.g always dependent on govt- which was the subliminal msg of the recent GOP candidate speaking in coded racial terms) and are not worthy to be on equal social footing, therefore racial segregation and marginalization (e.g. GOP obsession with voter fraud among minorities) needed to preserve white culture and "political" control over resources. It may not be stated in writing except among right-wing radical white fringe groups but it is evident in the way white society has conducted it's business the last 100 years. Attitudes are changing, but not quick enough and unfortunately, there are some who would rather destroy the country vice let it be managed by a person of color - black, Hispanic, Chinese, or American Indian, all of which history shows have been treated badly by white society.

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by DShirley

The history of race relations in Detroit is the reason why the metro area is segregated, and is reinforced by white social habits of residential development and economic investment. As a African-American from the metro area and very familiar with the surrounding tri-county communities, the competition for scarce employment exacerbates the situation (common in any multi-racial culture). The recent jobs sprawl report published by the Detroit Free Press around May of 2013 only clarifies how bad race relations are and where economic development is occurring.

So what is the solution? Part of the answer is economic investment and revitalization of Detroit in terms of jobs and job training - or who is willing to invest in black human capital?? The other part of the equation deals with white fear and historic social animosity towards blacks, but not just blacks but any non-white minority in general. Historically, blacks have always sought full social integration (granted black intellectual thoughts on integration wrestled with the view points of militant vice nonviolent protest). Not so with whites, the history of this nation proves that - slavery solidified in the minds (there is a historical theorization from the 19th century of black inferiority that has survived into this 21st century in addition to the fact that racial hatred is taught and passed down generationally) of many whites that persist today that blacks are simply inferior beings. As the dominant race which controls the vast majority of economic wealth to grow the nation, a collective "choice" to change white perceptions of the worth and value of blacks (or simply minorities in general) must be made to improve race relations, but unfortunately that is not the accepted collective thought. The prevailing perception appears to be that blacks have no value (e.g always dependent on govt- which was the subliminal msg of the recent GOP candidate speaking in coded racial terms) and are not worthy to be on equal social footing, therefore racial segregation and marginalization (e.g. GOP obsession with voter fraud among minorities) needed to preserve white culture and "political" control over resources. It may not be stated in writing except among right-wing radical white fringe groups but it is evident in the way white society has conducted it's business the last 100 years. Attitudes are changing, but not quick enough and unfortunately, there are some who would rather destroy the country vice let it be managed by a person of color - black, Hispanic, Chinese, or American Indian, all of which history shows have been treated badly by white society.

There is some truth to that, I won't deny. But another factor is the negative self-image that a lot of blacks -- and more importantly, black society -- has self-imposed upon themselves. The very fact that many blacks have no problem calling each other the n-word, the very fact that modern black music reinforces negative stereotypes, the very fact that race-mongers are chosen as "black leaders", the very fact that blacks discriminate against themselves based on skin darkness and uppityness, these and many other examples tell me that blacks may be holding themselves back more than white are holding them back.

[Yugoguy]

While I am a male, I am white, I've spent a couple years in Detroit, and I find that how exactly you carry yourself in areas like that directly correlate to how often you get looked at funny. Never ignore anything, but don't look concerned about anything either and you'll blend in pretty well. Looking unsure is a good way to be bothered by everybody for miles looking for a handout, I've ran into this before in Detroit with friends unfamiliar with the city. I doubt this differs much from Australia, but perhaps you were caught off guard.

[malamute]

Why go to Detroit to study race relations? That's not the only example of black-white race relations, or at least also come to a city like El Paso or Fountain Colorado where there is a military base and observe the very different race relations and see how integrated people can be.