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Like many, many others in the Rock Island (IL) area, my spouse is a civilian employee of DoD/Army whose job is scheduled to be moved to TACOM at Warren, MI. This move is tentatively scheduled for summer of 2010. Although TACOM/Warren is located at 11 Mile Road and Van Dyke, it is possible that my spouse might have to work at temporary facilities on Selfridge ANGB at first, until permanent buildings at Warren are finished.
My spouse and I are traveling to the Warren/Selfridge area next week, so I am especially interested in checking out the area for the future move. My spouse's initial concern is commute time, so we have been researching the area midway between the two facilities. (My spouse would love to keep the commute to 30 minutes, but I have my own doubts that this is realistic.)
Although we aren't looking at specific properties at this time, we would welcome suggestions regarding areas to sight-see:
1) We are a married couple in our late 40's with no children. Although we wouldn't be using the school district directly, we are interested in its quality, as well as that of other civic services such as police, snow removal, etc. (Of course, no one posts on forums like this saying that they're looking for *lousy* civic services, do they? )
2) Our ideal place would be a somewhat autonomous town without huge tracts of cookie-cutter "bedroom" suburbs. I work at home, and, although I enjoy quiet, I also appreciate not being the only adult for blocks at home during the daytime. We currently live in a mixed-use area where we can walk to many of our daily needs, but I understand that much of the Detroit metro suburbs were not designed that way.
3) We haven't narrowed down our housing preferences much yet, so we've been using a very general "1000" yardstick (1000 square feet, $1000/mo. rent, $100,000 purchase). If we initially rented a place, I would be looking at 2 bedrooms, 1 1/2 baths, a 2-car garage if possible, single-family or end unit condo as a guideline. Is this realistic for the area?
4) We are generally homebodies and computer geeks, but we do enjoy ethnic food and the small art galleries/shops/coffee houses scene. We don't like huge crowds and festivals so much. We both were raised in rural areas and enjoy being able to drive in the country, but we prefer mid-sze or larger towns for their amenities.
Thanks in advance to those who offer suggestions. I appreciate your help!
The things you describe are available and abundant. I don't think you will have any problem whatsoever finding that type of home, and probably for very close to that price as well (not sure about purchasing as low as $100, but you wouldn't need to go much higher).
Halfway between Warren and Selfridge is somewhere near Clinton Twp. Tons of different types of developments there, some of them aging, but plenty of stuff under 15 years old as well. If you're looking for a more "downtown" type feel, with some good walking and shopping close by, you can't go wrong around Mt. Clemens either... it's a very cool area. Not quite as trendy as Royal Oak, but not nearly as pricey either.
Take a drive down M59 between VanDyke and 94. It's a bit further than a half-hour to south Warren taking VanDyke down, but it's an area that was very heavily developed in the last decade or so. Any type of typical surburban thing you could possibly want is on that stretch, and much of it almost brand new. Yes, most of it is cookie-cutter McMansion style, but it will give you a good feel for how accessible the area is for whatever you need.
Taking a drive up I-94, just a few miles, could be helpful as well. Once you get to New Haven you'll be out of the "city" type feel and more of a "town" feel... possibly even a "country" type feel if you get a couple miles off the freeway. I'm not sure this would be down your alley, but it's yet another of the myriad of choices you'll have for types of areas you want to live in.
Lastly, if you have time, take a drive down Jefferson as well. I'm not sure how much you'll find between Selfridge and Detroit that's in your price range (Grosse Pointes are quite pricey), but again, it will give you a good feel for some of the more historic parts of the area. As you drive down Jefferson, eventually you'll know when to turn around. The line between "this is a nice place!" and "this is a horrible place!" is rather abrupt.
All of this stuff is about a half-hour from both places you mentioned, and all of it has an extremely different feel to it. It's quite a diverse area, and you're really only seeing about 1/4 of the overall metro area. It'll take you a great deal longer to explore the downriver area, the Dearborn/west-side area, the Oakland County suburbs, etc... the sheer size of the place still makes my head spin.
Well first off very few on this board understand BRAC or even TACOM for that matter. Warren/Detroit is not a civil servant type of town. I have been RIFed and I have worked at TACOM. I would not do it again. I have been TDY to Rock Island but not long enough to make comparisons to TACOM. I’ll say this the infrastructure in Macomb County (which is where you are looking) is bent around existing realities. That is it was not a corn field then a freeway was laid out in a way that made sense. That is not a bashing but that is the reality of most of the US. Now a community that plans for growth is a different case. Some military towns are that way because of the way military growth is planned in advance.
I would decide carefully, if he has a choice of locations I would consider those. Last summer one RIF refuge from Rock Island had to choose between Huntsville, AL (Redstone Arsenal) and TACOM. She posted in this sub forum and in Huntsville. She chose Huntsville. Income tax burden is similar, property taxes are 450% more in Michigan, roads are worse, but Housing is cheaper although much, much older. Schools are not a factor for you but Huntsville schools are better (because of how they are funded and operating costs). Finally I would consider your employment; Metro Detroit has very high unemployment. TACOM employs about 5,000 I believe. Redstone has 15,000 and double that in Contractors. Am I biased, yes. Have I walked the same path you have, yes.
That said Michigan is very cheap right now, water sports recreation is readily available. As a bonus it is similar to Rock Island.
Thank you both for your replies. We arrived in the metro NE area Saturday night and drove from 696 north up Van Dyke, east across M59, and south down Gratiot Ave. into Mt. Clemens. Yesterday we drove around much farther:
1) Down Jefferson Ave. along the lakefront, through St. Clair Shores and the Gross Pointes. Very, very beautiful area - most of it, of course, far out of our budget - and the lake is gorgeous. As MTU Cache observed, the demarcation line between affluence and decay is abrupt, almost surreal. We turned east and then back north onto Kerchival, going from boarded and burnt houses to small shops and strolling shoppers within 2 blocks, as if it were another planet. (Ironically,of all the places we went yesterday, this little business district is where we got the feeling that we were being appraised or stared at.) Then over to Mack and eventually onto Jefferson again.
2) 11 Mile west from the lake across Roseville, Warren, Madison Heights, and Royal Oak past Woodward, cutting back to Woodward through Huntington Woods (my spouse loved the tree-arched streets and little parks here, but it also looked pricey), into Ferndale, then north up Campbell Road to 14 Mile. We liked this last area a great deal. The houses were well kept and the small shopping centers we saw had a good variety of small businesses and restaurants.
3) 14 Mile east across north Warren/south Sterling Heights to Utica Rd. in Fraser. Unfortunately, most of this seemed to be the vast tracts of suburban development that tends to depress me, however maintained (and we did leave 14 Mile periodically and drive through neighborhoods that seemed really nice). We were also concerned by the nearly empty shopping centers we passed, including what appeared to be two closed grocery stores.
4) Northeast on Utica Rd. to Schoenherr Rd. in Sterling Heights - an interesting variety of neighborhhood styles. Eventually (yes, we wandered around a bit) we ended up at M59 again and so east back to Selfridge ANGB. Last night we also went as far north as 23 Mile Road on Gratiot Ave.
Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to invite comments on where we've been and suggestions on other places we should see while we're here. Again, we appreciate the help.
And Toymeister, you won't find me disagreeing about the good points of the Huntsville - Madison AL area. We've been there on TDY several times, sometimes for as long as a month at a time, and we enjoyed it a great deal. Unfortunately, not everyone whose position is being moved from Rock Island will be able to transfer to Huntsville instead, and we have heard some rumors that TACOM-related functions now at Huntsville may transfer to Warren as well. IF this is true (and I do NOT know if it is yet), I'd hate to get to Huntsville, thinking we'd "escaped" going to Warren, and then have to turn around and move to Warren after all!
2) 11 Mile west from the lake across Roseville, Warren, Madison Heights, and Royal Oak past Woodward, cutting back to Woodward through Huntington Woods (my spouse loved the tree-arched streets and little parks here, but it also looked pricey), into Ferndale, then north up Campbell Road to 14 Mile. We liked this last area a great deal. The houses were well kept and the small shopping centers we saw had a good variety of small businesses and restaurants.
This part of your post caught my eye, as I'm very familiar with this area. Last year I completed a utility survey of the entire city of Huntington Woods, and got a great feel for that city and the people who live in it. I don't know if I've ever seen a city where so many people walk their kids to school and get so involved in their community. Then again, a large portion of that is due to the fact that they're stay-at-home moms who's husbands make very handsome salaries. HW is definitely not a cheap place to live, and while you can simply cross the street to Oak Park, Berkley, etc, those communities look and feel extremely different.
Both my parents grew up in the Madison Heights/Clawson area (Campbell/12 Mile), and my grandparents lived there up until a few years ago. Again, around this area there are some great neighborhoods and some bad ones, seemingly with no rhyme or reason. The houses are generally older, but many are very well maintained. Small houses by nowadays standards, but fifty years ago families of five lived in them with no problems at all. Still close to Royal Oak, and also close to the shopping and new conveniences of Troy. Unfortunately, I think a lot of those empty shopping centers you saw in other areas are going to be common-place around here as well. I-75 traffic helps to insulate some of them, but Oakland Mall has taken a pretty drastic hit in the last few years, and a lot of those office buildings along 75 are sitting half-empty (or worse) right now.
This gives me a better feel for what you're looking for... I'll try and think of some other similar areas around.
Also... if you guys didn't get a chance to go through downtown Mt. Clemens, I strongly recommend it. Definitely a unique area that has a nice feel to it.
Poster WLS2624 was the last BRAC person who made a similar choice. She may be able to help.
If your job is at TACOM certainly don’t look a gift horse in the mouth. Having said that leave as soon as possible. Depending upon your job series and grade you should have no problem finding a non beltway job. I may be way off, but I presume part of the reason you are renting is in anticipation of a future move. If so that is an excellent idea. If you are waiting for a great deal to come along, again there is no rush.
Again - thanks for your replies. We are continuing to explore the area and appreciate additional comments.
On Monday evening, my spouse and I drove around Mount Clemens a bit, taking a turn and ending up on Sunshine Point at the Lake. Although we are not water people by any means, we enjoyed looking at the boats and all the houses with their own docks along the waterways. Very similar to some areas around Eglin AFB on the Florida Gulf coast (except for the weather, of course).
Then we found our way back off the Lake and traveled south along Grosebeck Hwy. into Fraser, which we also drove around. My spouse, who attended a small rural high school, was impressed with the sheer size of the Fraser High campus. We also drove around the Macomb College campus. The neighborhoods seem smaller in scope and laid out in less of a grid pattern here. As in other areas, most of the houses seemed well kept, some were in distress, and some were vacant/in foreclosure. There seemed to be more open businesses than closed ones, though, as in some other 'burbs, there wasn't what we at Rock Island Arsenal (RIA) would really call a "downtown" here.
Yesterday (Tuesday) I did what I call a "grid tour". I started out in Mount Clemens, drove south on Harper Rd. to 12 Mile road, and then drove west and east between Harper Rd. and Van Dyke, stepping north with each pass. This took me through part of St. Clair Shores, the northern part of Roseville, the north half of Warren, the south half of Sterling Heights, Frazer, and some of Clinton Township. It took me three and a half hours, but I learned a great deal about the layout of the area, so it was time well spent. Some general observations:
1) In an earlier post, MTUCache wrote about "some great neighborhoods and some bad ones, seemingly with no rhyme or reason", and that continued to be my observation. People traveling from RIA to TACOM/Warren on TDY are frequently told to stay above 11 Mile Rd., and they will be "fine". This may be good advice as far as it goes, but I certainly wouldn't choose a place to live without coming here to see it first!
2) The pattern of suburban growth in this metro area is different than the growth patterns in the towns and cities around RIA, and it takes some getting used to. I found it very odd to see McMansions backed up against an industrial park, to cite one example, apparently without the use of "buffer" zoning. I'm no expert on either city planning or zoning issues, and I don't mean to imply that one method of growth management is better than another. But those who come from RIA - who are accustomed to discrete town boundaries, "downtowns", and growth that is zoned up to five years in advance - will find many areas puzzling at first. Although I haven't been paying much attention to school districts, I have realized that they overlap municipal boundaries here very frequently - again, something many families from RIA will want to pay close attention to.
Another long post, but I'll close out with an amusing incident. My spouse and I have cruised so many neighborhoods that we've joked that we'll live in the first one that calls the police on us... Well, yesterday I was followed by a police car for quite a while, just south of M59 in the county. I may have flubbed one of the switchbacks or "clips" used here to make turns on high-traffic roads, or I may have just looked out of place... At any rate, after following me long enough to run my plates (if he did, indeed), the officer went on his way.
My apologies for the double post, but I wanted to wrap up what we saw on our trip to Macomb County and our impressions of it.
1) My spouse and I spent three days further exploring the Mt. Clemens and the area of the County surrounding it. We felt very comfortable here and saw many good possibilities for housing in our price range. We also enjoyed Mt. Clemen's downtown. Thanks to MTUCache for suggesting that we take a good look at Mt. Clemens!
2) Although it seems well out of commuting range for Warren, we also drove the more northern areas and went as far as New Haven, New Baltimore, and Anchorville. This is a much more rural area and very pleasant, especially along the lake.
3) Since we had both seen western Oakland County on previous trips, we didn't spend a lot of time driving around Troy. We did, however, take advantage of a cold, rainy afternoon to visit The Somerset Collection, an upscale mall on Big Beaver Road. The mall was decorated for Halloween and was providing a stage show for families, so there were a lot of kids in costume around, having a great time. It was a lot of fun!
4) Finally, we explored northern Sterling Heights and took a drive through Utica. Sterling Heights seemed to contain endless blocks of upscale apartment and condominium developments here. We were more comfortable in Utica but had concerns about commute time. We visited Partridge Creek Mall on M59 and really enjoyed its outdoor setting. This mall was also having a Halloween program and was very busy with families and children in costume. The mall allows dogs in its outdoor courtyards, which added to the festive atmosphere. We had great fun here just talking to people about their pets and their kids' costumes!
I am very, very glad that we made this trip. The people we met and talked to everywhere were generally friendly and forthright - once they had had a little time to warm up to you. (I say this only to contrast it with the area around Rock island Arsenal, particularly on the Iowa side of the river, where people can be very outgoing and chatty.) And, although the area is suffering a major economic hit, it still has many positive aspects that are ignored or underplayed by the national media. There are great possibilities here.
I lived in MI all my life & worked for TACOM for 36 years (right out of highschool). Started as a secretary & went on to admin, cataloging, provisioning & finally equipment specialist. I retired in 2003. My boss at that time was a 'transplant' from St. Louis & he did not regret his move. Neither will you! Many opportunities & wonderful people. Good Luck!
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