Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The bottom line is that many whites view blacks, en masse, as diminishing to their quality of life, quality of education, quality of culture and more. It really has been a self reinforcing belief.
I think it would be more accurate to say that many whites view blacks, en masse, as diminishing to the quality of life, quality of education, and quality of culture of blacks. Blacks are doing more harm to themselves than they possibly could to whites. I think most whites and blacks acknowledge that blacks are better off in white areas than black areas. Why do you think that so many white school districts open their schools to blacks, why white stores cater to black customers and hire black workers, why white people sell their home to blacks? I welcome blacks to my city with open arms. Get the hell out of Detroit, it has become unlivable. Make a better life for yourself and your children. Black culture is detrimental to blacks.
The bottom line is that many whites view blacks, en masse, as diminishing to their quality of life, quality of education, quality of culture and more. It really has been a self reinforcing belief.
I agree - this view exists for many. And I would venture that this view is also held by a good number of blacks as well.
So in answer to my query "So how does one change it?" you replied...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
For me the question is how do we prosper DESPITE IT. That may mean redefining what prosperity really is.
Which still leaves me confused.
You seem to mean that school districts shouldn't have an effect on property values.
Which leads to the implication that educational standards at the primary and secondary level shouldn't be important to parents.
I think it would be more accurate to say that many whites view blacks, en masse, as diminishing to the quality of life, quality of education, and quality of culture of blacks. Blacks are doing more harm to themselves than they possibly could to whites. I think most whites and blacks acknowledge that blacks are better off in white areas than black areas. Why do you think that so many white school districts open their schools to blacks, why white stores cater to black customers and hire black workers, why white people sell their home to blacks? I welcome blacks to my city with open arms. Get the hell out of Detroit, it has become unlivable. Make a better life for yourself and your children. Black culture is detrimental to blacks.
I would agree with your first sentence based upon the long held belief of white supremacy....which is still alive and well in this day and age. That is essentially the foundation of the belief....the inferior NATURE of blacks is what keeps blacks down relative to whites, who have a SUPERIOR nature, which accounts for the better socioeconomic standing. Hence, many white feel that to immerse and integrate with blacks, en mass, would diminish and degrade whites.
I would agree with your first sentence based upon the long held belief of white supremacy....which is still alive and well in this day and age. That is essentially the foundation of the belief....the inferior NATURE of blacks is what keeps blacks down relative to whites, who have a SUPERIOR nature, which accounts for the better socioeconomic standing. Hence, many white feel that to immerse and integrate with blacks, en mass, would diminish and degrade whites.
Not true. The problem is not the nature of blacks; it's the culture of blacks. It's not about the inherent tendencies of blacks; it's about the choices they willingly make. It's not about one race being superior and one being inferior. It's about one culture being relatively better than another.
Let me put it this way. Within the entire worldwide black population, you will find variations of culture where some are more conducive to healthy society than others. The same can be said of white populations. There are even some black societies that are better than white societies. So it's not about the race of people that matters; it's about how they choose to live.
Let's look at some examples:
A culture where parental responsibility is valued is better than one where it is not. This is true for both white and black cultures. Unfortunately, there is a relatively greater tendency for blacks to choose to be irresponsible parents. That's not to say that all blacks are irresponsible parents and that all whites aren't. It's not about each individual; it's about the culture, or the summation of all the individuals, responsible and irresponsible.
Tolerance of illegal/immoral activity. In many black cultures, there is a greater acceptance of illegal/immoral activity. This does not mean that blacks are more immoral than white; it's that they choose to be so. The reason for this is the belief by many blacks that laws were instituted by whites, often for the suppression of blacks, and therefore, blacks have the option of taking-or-leaving them.
Maintaining home and property, vandalizing/arsonizing the neighborhood. Again, there is no genetic defect or supergene that causes people to destroy or preserve their environment; it's a choice that people make. Many blacks feel that their community is not their own, that they inherited a hand-me-down from whites. Since it doesn't represent them and they take no pride in it, they choose not to take care of it or destroy it.
Again, to repeat, most white people (except for the few who are true racists) do not formulate an opinion on blacks based on the belief that blacks are inferior by nature. Rather they formulate an opinion based on their experiences with black culture. If a person drives through numerous black neighborhoods that are in poor condition and a few that are in good condition and then they drive through many white neighborhoods that are in good condition and a few that are in bad condition, they will make a rational assessment that white neighborhoods are better than black. This is true for blacks and whites. Why else would blacks be fleeing Detroit for the white suburbs? If a person watches the evening news every night and 3/4 of the crimes are being committed by 1/4 of the people, and 1/4 of the crimes are being committed by 3/4 of the people, they will make a rational assessment that living with the 3/4 of people is safer than living with the 1/4 people. Notice this has nothing to do with natural superiority/inferiority; it's about how people choose to live.
Not true. The problem is not the nature of blacks; it's the culture of blacks. It's not about the inherent tendencies of blacks; it's about the choices they willingly make. It's not about one race being superior and one being inferior. It's about one culture being relatively better than another.
Let me put it this way. Within the entire worldwide black population, you will find variations of culture where some are more conducive to healthy society than others. The same can be said of white populations. There are even some black societies that are better than white societies. So it's not about the race of people that matters; it's about how they choose to live.
Let's look at some examples:
A culture where parental responsibility is valued is better than one where it is not. This is true for both white and black cultures. Unfortunately, there is a relatively greater tendency for blacks to choose to be irresponsible parents. That's not to say that all blacks are irresponsible parents and that all whites aren't. It's not about each individual; it's about the culture, or the summation of all the individuals, responsible and irresponsible.
Tolerance of illegal/immoral activity. In many black cultures, there is a greater acceptance of illegal/immoral activity. This does not mean that blacks are more immoral than white; it's that they choose to be so. The reason for this is the belief by many blacks that laws were instituted by whites, often for the suppression of blacks, and therefore, blacks have the option of taking-or-leaving them.
Maintaining home and property, vandalizing/arsonizing the neighborhood. Again, there is no genetic defect or supergene that causes people to destroy or preserve their environment; it's a choice that people make. Many blacks feel that their community is not their own, that they inherited a hand-me-down from whites. Since it doesn't represent them and they take no pride in it, they choose not to take care of it or destroy it.
Again, to repeat, most white people (except for the few who are true racists) do not formulate an opinion on blacks based on the belief that blacks are inferior by nature. Rather they formulate an opinion based on their experiences with black culture. If a person drives through numerous black neighborhoods that are in poor condition and a few that are in good condition and then they drive through many white neighborhoods that are in good condition and a few that are in bad condition, they will make a rational assessment that white neighborhoods are better than black. This is true for blacks and whites. Why else would blacks be fleeing Detroit for the white suburbs? If a person watches the evening news every night and 3/4 of the crimes are being committed by 1/4 of the people, and 1/4 of the crimes are being committed by 3/4 of the people, they will make a rational assessment that living with the 3/4 of people is safer than living with the 1/4 people. Notice this has nothing to do with natural superiority/inferiority; it's about how people choose to live.
Tell me how black people consciously choose a culture different than the rest of America given that the Average African American has deeper generations in this nation than the average white person? Culture is a LEARNED BEHAVIOR. Socialization and enculturation manifest primarily through emulation. Its simply human see human do for the most part. Thus, the only way that different cultures can be incubated in the same nation is through some sort of isolation that prevents people from emulating normative cultural behavior. If what people see is the abuse and dehuminization of people that look like them, then they become conditioned and socialized, culturally, to see and treat each other in a similar fashion. Why do you think children who grow up in abusive alcoholic families are much more likely to grow up to be abusive alcoholic adults who treat their kids the same way? Why do you think peopole who grow up poor are more likely to be poor than those who don't grow up poor? Again, it's socialization and enculturaion via emulation......human see human do. Its a subconscious conditioning that can be overidden by choice if one is aware of the conditioning, however, those who are lucky enough to be allowed to immerse into the normative culture, without people constantly moving the culture away from them, have an advantage.
White folks learned "white culture" and their propensity to segregate and denigrate blacks incuabated a different culture for blacks. If "culture" is a learned thing, like a formal education, then have not whites denied blacks that culture, to a great degree, by their propensities of "white flight", if not to legally segregate and seperate? I think so. White folks learned white culture from white folks. If that is the "normative" culture and socialization and enculturation manifest through emulation, then its "white flight" and historical segregation that is at fault from preventing blacks from integrating and learning the "normative" culture....given that it is not "nature". If its not nature then whites living around other whites allows you to learn it.....but whites historically not wanting to live around blacks has kept blacks from learning it. No matter how you shake it......white socieities behavior and attitude towards blacks have contributed greatly to the problem.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 01-20-2011 at 01:39 PM..
It was listed for sale a couple of months ago for $58,000
My jaw hit the floor. Think we sold it in like 1973 for $48,000
That was considered Big Time nice neighborhood at the time.
I was the paper boy, used to ride my bike on the sidewalks admiring
how well kept everyones lawn was. I knew I'd NEVER be able to afford
one of those houses :-)
Drove threw a few years back, the community pool was empty with
cracks, and weeds going out of it.
Very surprising
Agreed....but Southfield was not an all Jewish community before blacks arrived.
Race still matters.
When we moved there in the early 70's it was.
Think there was like 500 houses in our community, and all but
5 were Jewish. We were Catholic, "one of the Catholics"
Was odd, we weren't used to being looked at as "other"
That was one of the reasons we left, the other was that
the new highway was slated to be too close to our house,
or potentially cut thru it. Didn't get a vibe the area was
going in the right direction, this was like 73
Sorry race still matters.
We were actually raised that we are all brothers and sisters
on this planet, sorry some still haven't gotten the memo.
[quote=Indentured Servant;17501337]Tell me how black people consciously choose a culture different than the rest of America...all races of people choose their culture. We are intelligent beings, not animals. We choose how we want to live. It's not about race; it's about being human... given that the Average African American has deeper generations in this nation than the average white person?...doesn't matter. Jews in Europe had a different culture from the Christians. The Jews in Israel have a different culture from the Muslims in Palestine. The whites in South Africa have a different culture from the blacks. Whenever people live segregated (forced or voluntary), they develop separate sub-cultures. This is basic sociology. Culture is a LEARNED BEHAVIOR. True. My point exactly. Socialization and enculturation manifest primarily through emulation.True. Its simply human see human do for the most part. True. Thus, the only way that different cultures can be incubated in the same nation is through some sort of isolation that prevents people from emulating normative cultural behavior. That's one way. The other way is voluntary isolation. If what people see is the abuse and dehuminization of people that look like them, then they become conditioned and socialized, culturally, to see and treat each other in a similar fashion. True and not true. It depends on how they choose to treat each other. We are intelligent human beings. If someone tells you you are an idiot, you can believe them or you can know better. Why do you think children who grow up in abusive alcoholic families are much more likely to grow up to be abusive alcoholic adults who treat their kids the same way? Because they are children who have not used their brain to realize that they should not treat their children the way that they did not want to be treated. The key words you used were "much more likely". Notice you didn't say "destined". We have a choice. Why do you think peopole who grow up poor are more likely to be poor than those who don't grow up poor? Not true. Poverty is not hereditary. If you take a poor kid and put him in a "rich" environment, he is no longer poor. If you take poor immigrants from post-war Europe and put them in the U.S., they prosper (from our earlier discussion). If you take poor black and white southerners and you give them a job at Fords, they have the ability to live more prosperously than before. Poverty is not a learned behavior; it's an economic condition. Give a poor man a job (or better yet, have a poor man find a job), and he is no longer poor. Again, it's socialization and enculturaion via emulation......human see human do. Its a subconscious conditioning that can be overidden by choice if one is aware of the conditioning, ...True...however, those who are lucky enough to be allowed to immerse into the normative culture, without people constantly moving the culture away from them, have an advantage. And what black person today living in America is unaware of what normative culture is? Are there really black people living in a bubble?
White folks learned...and created... "white culture" and their propensity (not a propensity. It was a conscious decision to subjugate blacks for economic purposes.) to segregate and denigrate blacks incuabated a different culture for blacks. True. If "culture" is a learned thing, like a formal education, then have not whites denied blacks that culture,...for a time, yes. to a great degree, by their propensities of "white flight", ...no, not by white flight, but yes by slavery and segregation. White flight was not a "propensity"; it was a conscious decision to move from an older area to make room for blacks in order to move to a newer modern area... if not to legally segregate and seperate? I think so. White folks learned...and created... white culture from...and by... white folks. If that is the "normative" culture and socialization and enculturation manifest through emulation, then its "white flight" and historical segregation that is at fault from preventing blacks from integrating and learning the "normative" culture....given that it is not "nature"....It is segregation that helped to cause a different culture for black. I wouldn't use the term "at fault" because there are also good things that came from segregation (music most notably). But blacks and whites weren't so segregated that we were oblivious to each other. We have integrated and learned a great deal from each other. If its not nature then whites living around other whites allows you to learn it.....but whites historically not wanting to live around blacks has kept blacks from learning it....key word: "historically". At some point we have to stop living in history and live in the here-and-now... No matter how you shake it......white socieities behavior and attitude towards blacks have contributed greatly to the problem. I will agree that segregation contributed to some of the differences in culture. The point I am trying to make is that what is needed is the conscious decision among blacks to change that culture. Do you think that black people should live on in perpetuity thinking "we can't be any better as a people 'cause white man oppressed our great-great-great-grandparents"? At some point, people need to ask "why are so many of our young children turning to violence?...is it really a good idea to get this women pregnant and then not take responsibility for my child?...do I really want to set fire to this abandoned home?...might it not be a good idea for me to pick up all this litter on my property and the vacant lot next door?...what do people think of me when they see me walking down the street with the waist of my pants hanging a foot lower than it should?...does it really make sense for me to spend hundreds of dollars on shiny new tires when I could be spending that money on more important thing?..." [/quote]
I think we can agree that much of our culture is passed down. Where we differ is I believe that we can choose to change that culture and you believe that our ancestors, or white man's ancestors, determined how we should live and, by God, we are going to stick to it even though we know better.
[quote=Retroit;17503562][quote=Indentured Servant;17501337]Tell me how black people consciously choose a culture different than the rest of America...all races of people choose their culture. We are intelligent beings, not animals. We choose how we want to live. It's not about race; it's about being human... That is totally untrue. When one is immersed in a culture they naturally emulate it. There is no "culture store" were individual go and choose their culture. If you were born in the Middle East you would be encultrated to be a Muslim, to speak the language, to have the diet and to value the things that are common to the culture. Does it happen....sure but such is unatural. given that the Average African American has deeper generations in this nation than the average white person?...doesn't matter. Jews in Europe had a different culture from the Christians. The Jews in Israel have a different culture from the Muslims in Palestine. The whites in South Africa have a different culture from the blacks. Whenever people live segregated (forced or voluntary), they develop separate sub-cultures. This is basic sociology. Well, if people have different culture from being FORCED to live seperately, then there is no CHOICE and the causation is born from those who seek seperation. Culture is a LEARNED BEHAVIOR. True. My point exactly. Socialization and enculturation manifest primarily through emulation.True. Its simply human see human do for the most part. True. Thus, the only way that different cultures can be incubated in the same nation is through some sort of isolation that prevents people from emulating normative cultural behavior. That's one way. The other way is voluntary isolation. Yes, that is another way but that other way is not why there are different cultures in America. Don't forget that nearly every city in Michigan was once almost all white. Thus, blacks had to demonstrate the will to integrate for those cities or communiites to go from all white to all black. It was whites who violently protested school integration and busing and it was whites who abondoned cities like Detroit, and Southfield, after blacks moved in with them. Thus, even though there does exist another way, as you suggest, that other way is not how seperate cultures incubated in America. If what people see is the abuse and dehuminization of people that look like them, then they become conditioned and socialized, culturally, to see and treat each other in a similar fashion. True and not true. It depends on how they choose to treat each other. We are intelligent human beings. If someone tells you you are an idiot, you can believe them or you can know better. It runs much deeper than that. Do you remember the video I posted? Someone calling you an idiot is much different from centuries of psuedo science proclaming the racial inferiority of a race of people and books like the "Bell Curve" are arguments CONSTANTLY being made by people like you that imply the inferiority of black pleople, under the mask of calling it "Culture". Since culture is CHOOSEN, as you say, they you are implying that whites are SMARTER than blacks and can therefore make better choices. I mean, you have yet to explain WHY whites can CHOOSE to follow the superior culture path and blacks fail to. Choice is a mental exercise of the mind....HMMMM....this one or that one........Hmmmmm....which one is best for me? Obvously a superior mind would make the better choice, if one assumes that all choices are made to maximize ones quality of life and opportunities. Why do you think children who grow up in abusive alcoholic families are much more likely to grow up to be abusive alcoholic adults who treat their kids the same way? Because they are children who have not used their brain to realize that they should not treat their children the way that they did not want to be treated. The key words you used were "much more likely". Notice you didn't say "destined". We have a choice. Ok....now we are getting to the root....they did not use their BRAIN....just like blacks don't but whites do in regards to culture. Does this not sound like the traditional white theories of black intillectual inferiority? Again, choice is a function of the BRAIN....and stating out right that blacks are making inferior choices implies that blacks have an inferior ability to make cognitive decisions or maybe you think we are so primitive, relative to whites, that we just operate off animal instincts. Why do you think peopole who grow up poor are more likely to be poor than those who don't grow up poor? Not true. Poverty is not hereditary. If you take a poor kid and put him in a "rich" environment, he is no longer poor. If you take poor immigrants from post-war Europe and put them in the U.S., they prosper (from our earlier discussion). If you take poor black and white southerners and you give them a job at Fords, they have the ability to live more prosperously than before. Poverty is not a learned behavior; it's an economic condition. Give a poor man a job (or better yet, have a poor man find a job), and he is no longer poor. You are arguing a straw man. I NEVER said implied that it was hereditary or destined. What I say is FACT and that FACT is that people reared poor in a community that is poor is more likely to be poor than people born middle or upper class and raised in middle and upper class communities. Again, it's socialization and enculturaion via emulation......human see human do. Its a subconscious conditioning that can be overidden by choice if one is aware of the conditioning, ...True...however, those who are lucky enough to be allowed to immerse into the normative culture, without people constantly moving the culture away from them, have an advantage. And what black person today living in America is unaware of what normative culture is? Are there really black people living in a bubble? Its certainly hard to know any other culture other than the one that surronds you, with the exception of what is on TV. If Normative culture is what manifest in "white communities" and one lives in the "black community" how are they suppposed to know what goes on....other than what they see on TV?
White folks learned...and created... You are contradicting yourself. If culture is a CHOICE, then its not created but something that exists and is picked among an array of options. "white culture" and their propensity (not a propensity. It was a conscious decision to subjugate blacks for economic purposes.) to segregate and denigrate blacks incuabated a different culture for blacks. True. If "culture" is a learned thing, like a formal education, then have not whites denied blacks that culture,...for a time, yes. to a great degree, by their propensities of "white flight", ...no, not by white flight, but yes by slavery and segregation. White flight was not a "propensity"; it was a conscious decision to move from an older area to make room for blacks in order to move to a newer modern area... When whites were flooding out of Detroit....it was after the riots....not a rush of benevolence to allow blacks access to homes while they moved up to bigger better things....LOL. In cities like Portland Oregon or Minneapolis, or Boston, why did not whites all move out the cities into bigger homes in the burbs...I guess when a city is mostly white....there is no big rush to move to bigger homes in the burbs....if not to legally segregate and seperate? I think so. White folks learned...and created...again...before you said it was a choice. white culture from...and by... white folks. If that is the "normative" culture and socialization and enculturation manifest through emulation, then its "white flight" and historical segregation that is at fault from preventing blacks from integrating and learning the "normative" culture....given that it is not "nature"....It is segregation that helped to cause a different culture for black. I wouldn't use the term "at fault" because there are also good things that came from segregation (music most notably). But blacks and whites weren't so segregated that we were oblivious to each other. We have integrated and learned a great deal from each other. Music and sports are hardly an equitable trade.If its not nature then whites living around other whites allows you to learn it.....but whites historically not wanting to live around blacks has kept blacks from learning it....key word: "historically". At some point we have to stop living in history and live in the here-and-now...That is why schools are becoming all black in places like Southfield.....ITS NOT JUST HISTORIC. Whites still do not want to raise children around a lot of blacks. No matter how you shake it......white socieities behavior and attitude towards blacks have contributed greatly to the problem. I will agree that segregation contributed to some of the differences in culture. The point I am trying to make is that what is needed is the conscious decision among blacks to change that culture. Do you think that black people should live on in perpetuity thinking "we can't be any better as a people 'cause white man oppressed our great-great-great-grandparents"? At some point, people need to ask "why are so many of our young children turning to violence?...is it really a good idea to get this women pregnant and then not take responsibility for my child?...do I really want to set fire to this abandoned home?...might it not be a good idea for me to pick up all this litter on my property and the vacant lot next door?...what do people think of me when they see me walking down the street with the waist of my pants hanging a foot lower than it should?...does it really make sense for me to spend hundreds of dollars on shiny new tires when I could be spending that money on more important thing?..."
I think you do not know what black culture is if you think such represents black culture. You cannot take the behavior of a small percentage of blacks who do bad things and then call that "black culture". When I was growing up in an all black community the vase majority kept up their yards. Black culture would be defined as the normative behaviors and beliefs of the average black person. Black culture are behaviors common among the majority......not the exceptions of the minority.
I think we can agree that much of our culture is passed down. Where we differ is I believe that we can choose to change that culture and you believe that our ancestors, or white man's ancestors, determined how we should live and, by God, we are going to stick to it even though we know better. That is not my position because my position is never absolutism. What I believe is this. Those running against a strong wind will generally do worse than those running with the wind. Some people are execptional enough to run against the strong wind and still run ahead of those who are running with the wind, but those who are simply EQUAL in ability with those running with the wind will always fall behind. If one is born into and immersed into the "superior culture", as defined by that culture (of course) then they are "running with the wind". Those who exist in the culuture incubated by oppression and poverty are "running against the wind".
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
