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The majority of Northern cities in America saw a reduction of t heir principle cities population, even cities that had comfortable white majorities. People moving from the cities to the suburbs were a general trend from the 60’s to 2000. People wanted bigger lots, attached garages, 2 car garages and many amenities that the city did not offer. So no, I don’t believe that the ONLY reason whites moved from cities to suburbs was due to racism. I like to believe that I am more intelligent and honest than that. Hence, what I am saying is that in Detroit, race and racism played a major role that exacerbated a national trend of suburbanization.
You continue to mention crime, corruption and violence as the overwhelming drive of whites from the city. Again, Chicago is a city with a long mob history, it is also a city with a long history of political corruption and it has long been a city with notorious street gangs. If your theory was correct, that these factors drive away whites from a city, then why are not Chicago racial demographics like Detroit’s? Please, do not repeat that whites in Chicago were too poor to move to the suburbs because they did not have automobile jobs like Detroit. Chicago has the GOLD COAST….the magnificent mile and all kind of wealthy and middle class white folks living in the city who could have easily afforded to live in the suburbs. Hence, the evidence seems to suggest that it is not crime, corruption and violence that drive whites nearly completely from a city, but rather, the color of the crime, corruption and violence.
To say that white people are not a largely racist group in this era where not even members of historical “hate” groups view themselves as racist is meaningless. I think the problem is that whites don’t know what racism is and they define it in a way that excludes an indictment of them, their thinking and behavior. It appears to me that whites see racism as an EMOTION, such as hate. Hence, to be a racist means to be invested in negative emotions towards blacks. Well, that is indeed a form of racism or prejudice, but the roots of racism are not emotions but RATIONALIZATIONS of a racial hierarchy in which whites are above blacks. You see, whites rationalize that if something is true, then the belief cannot be racist and the negative things that they note about black people are simply truisms and not racism.
If it is a truism that blacks are more criminal, more corrupt, more violent, lazier and more irresponsible than whites, then one HAS to believe that blacks are INFERIOR to whites. You cannot point out so many reasons, as you do, that whites are justified in their views of black people in general and that it’s rooted in TRUISMS and not RACISM, without the logical rational conclusion being black inferiority which is the foundation or has the corollary of white supremacy (at least relative to blacks). Of course, whites also dismiss the notion and argument that these behaviors and conditions in blacks are in anyway the consequence of the clear history of racial oppression in this nation against black, so there is no causation left other than racial inferiority.
Now, the fact that white people voted for Obama simply represents that people are willing to grant exception and often do. Racism is not how you feel about an individual, but rather, how you feel about a GROUP. Obama is a person who is half white and was raised by whites. During the campaign, the only part of his family that was highlighted was his white side….and that was on purpose. Furthermore, Obama shunned the civil rights community and the traditional black agenda, which further made him more palatable to whites. You see, if you can get one black person to stymie the agenda of 40 million black people, even if you don’t really care for black people, you can use that black person as a tactic in a larger strategy to undermine the civil rights movement and leaders like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and black that whites seen as agitators. You are also correct that whites were trying to prove something to themselves. They were trying to convince themselves that they are not racist…..so they voted for him. Voting for Obama then becomes a person “I am not a racist” membership card that one usually joined by having a ‘best friend” who is black.
The fallacy of composition is when one assumes that what is true of the whole is true of all its parts and what is true of a part is thus true for the whole. Just because you believe that the Detroit lions suck does not mean that you will not grant exception for a player on the team and acknowledge that they are good. In reverse, people recognize that not every player on a great team is a great player. So the argument that because people voted for Obama that such proves how whites feel about blacks…..is totally untenable.
Consider yourself one more reputation point richer.
The majority of Northern cities in America saw a reduction of t heir principle cities population, even cities that had comfortable white majorities. People moving from the cities to the suburbs were a general trend from the 60’s to 2000. People wanted bigger lots, attached garages, 2 car garages and many amenities that the city did not offer. So no, I don’t believe that the ONLY reason whites moved from cities to suburbs was due to racism. I like to believe that I am more intelligent and honest than that. Hence, what I am saying is that in Detroit, race and racism played a major role that exacerbated a national trend of suburbanization.
You continue to mention crime, corruption and violence as the overwhelming drive of whites from the city. Again, Chicago is a city with a long mob history, it is also a city with a long history of political corruption and it has long been a city with notorious street gangs. If your theory was correct, that these factors drive away whites from a city, then why are not Chicago racial demographics like Detroit’s? Please, do not repeat that whites in Chicago were too poor to move to the suburbs because they did not have automobile jobs like Detroit. Chicago has the GOLD COAST….the magnificent mile and all kind of wealthy and middle class white folks living in the city who could have easily afforded to live in the suburbs. Hence, the evidence seems to suggest that it is not crime, corruption and violence that drive whites nearly completely from a city, but rather, the color of the crime, corruption and violence.
To say that white people are not a largely racist group in this era where not even members of historical “hate” groups view themselves as racist is meaningless. I think the problem is that whites don’t know what racism is and they define it in a way that excludes an indictment of them, their thinking and behavior. It appears to me that whites see racism as an EMOTION, such as hate. Hence, to be a racist means to be invested in negative emotions towards blacks. Well, that is indeed a form of racism or prejudice, but the roots of racism are not emotions but RATIONALIZATIONS of a racial hierarchy in which whites are above blacks. You see, whites rationalize that if something is true, then the belief cannot be racist and the negative things that they note about black people are simply truisms and not racism.
If it is a truism that blacks are more criminal, more corrupt, more violent, lazier and more irresponsible than whites, then one HAS to believe that blacks are INFERIOR to whites. You cannot point out so many reasons, as you do, that whites are justified in their views of black people in general and that it’s rooted in TRUISMS and not RACISM, without the logical rational conclusion being black inferiority which is the foundation or has the corollary of white supremacy (at least relative to blacks). Of course, whites also dismiss the notion and argument that these behaviors and conditions in blacks are in anyway the consequence of the clear history of racial oppression in this nation against black, so there is no causation left other than racial inferiority.
Now, the fact that white people voted for Obama simply represents that people are willing to grant exception and often do. Racism is not how you feel about an individual, but rather, how you feel about a GROUP. Obama is a person who is half white and was raised by whites. During the campaign, the only part of his family that was highlighted was his white side….and that was on purpose. Furthermore, Obama shunned the civil rights community and the traditional black agenda, which further made him more palatable to whites. You see, if you can get one black person to stymie the agenda of 40 million black people, even if you don’t really care for black people, you can use that black person as a tactic in a larger strategy to undermine the civil rights movement and leaders like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and black that whites seen as agitators. You are also correct that whites were trying to prove something to themselves. They were trying to convince themselves that they are not racist…..so they voted for him. Voting for Obama then becomes a person “I am not a racist” membership card that one usually joined by having a ‘best friend” who is black.
The fallacy of composition is when one assumes that what is true of the whole is true of all its parts and what is true of a part is thus true for the whole. Just because you believe that the Detroit lions suck does not mean that you will not grant exception for a player on the team and acknowledge that they are good. In reverse, people recognize that not every player on a great team is a great player. So the argument that because people voted for Obama that such proves how whites feel about blacks…..is totally untenable.
You mentioned in several previous post that you believe white flight, and the absence of whites is the reason Detroit is the way it is today. I responded by telling you what I thought were the reasons this occured. After all, my entire family (myself included) were amoung those who fled the city during its declining years after the riot, so I think my opinon should count for something. I told you that the reasons whites left are pretty simple, fear of the crime and violence of the city. I will admit that there are some racist white people (just as there are racist blacks), but overall most of us are not racist. What you precieve as racism is our disaproval of the way Detroit is being run, and the way black people choose to live in the city. Many white people are angered by the crime, violence and problems associated with Detroit. You believe that means we see blacks as inferior (basically that we are racists). This is an incorrect view, because if we saw blacks as inferior to whites, then our attitude would change. We would not be angry when we see black people fail, but we would feel duty bound to take care of them. I believe we all have the same potential regardless of race, so when I hear race used as an excuse it makes me angry. I know you believe whole heartedly that Detroits problems are a result of racism, but in the end many of the individuals who live in that city made alot of bad choices in life, then when things go badly there is always the race issue and white people to blame. I will grant you that alot of bad feelings have grown up around race in Michigan, but in this day and age race is not keeping anyone down. We have countless laws to protect American citizens from racism, we have had 50 years of liberal programs in order to end poverty, yet none of this has changed the demographics of race in southeast Michigan. I dont believe it is 100% about race, but about a local culture that has developed in Detroit, a culture of dependency and blame. The liberal programs of the last 50 years that were intended to help end the poverty in Detroit, have indeed made the people there dependent on them. Dependent people are hopeless people, and hopeless people turn to drugs alcohol and crime. You think the white people north of the 8 mile road all look down at the city and see themselves as racially superior, well I am telling you that is wrong. We see Detroits blacks as perfectly capable of supporting themselves, and being good citizens. You see our anger resulting in the choice being made by the people of Detroit NOT to be those things. That is NOT racism. I know I am likely wasting my time here, you will just see my post as another racist white rant, but I have said my peace. Hopefully something positive will come from this debate.
Daniel, remember that I noted that arguments that seek to extrapolate that what is true of a part is thus true for the whole……are fallacious. What you are trying to tell me is that you and your family represent the microcosm of white families, in your opinion. That may or may not be true, but you certainly have not demonstrated that what was true of your family was true of all or most white families. How could you….for you don’t even know 1 percent of them? You can make the argument for your family and your family only…..and that’s it. The riots did not cover the 135 square miles of the city. It was concentrated around 12th street. Most whites watched it from TV and did not see tanks rolling down their street like your family did. So I seriously doubt that your family experience serves as a microcosm of what the experience of whites was in the city. So yes, your opinion and experience counts for something and I am giving you FULL credit for that, which is YOUR FAMILIES EXPERIENCE. I am not giving you any credit in your argument that your family experience as white people speaks for all or the majority of white people who left the city.
Its seems that nowadays, whites cannot and will not admit or address white racism without attempting to normalize or neutralize it by saying things like “Blacks are just as racist too” or "It happens on both sides"..ie...its a wash. Do you understand that you are playing a psychological game with yourself? It’s a form of cognitive dissonance. Anything that is perceived as bad, that white folks do, you want to draw equivalence with black people. “Oh blacks are just as racist as whites”! Are you arguing that blacks are just as human as whites? Well, why don’t you make the same argument in regards to personal responsibility, work ethic, propensities toward crime, intellect and the like? What you are saying through omission and commission is that we are not as good as you in the good things you do, but we are just as bad as you in the bad things you do….such as racism. In other words...your superior. The truth is that there is no controlled environment to prove that blacks are just as racist as whites. You see, blacks don’t have a 300 plus year history of enslaving and writing laws to oppress white people and propagating a doctrine of white inferiority. As the saying goes, you can attract more bees with honey than you can with vinegar. Why you think blacks would be attracted to whites with all the vinegar you spread the last 300 years has me at a loss. Blacks have RESENTMENT, whites have RACISM. Group narcissism is a basic human tendency and blacks have that as well as whites. Degrees above that baseline for blacks are due to RESENTMENT of mistreatment and degrees above that for whites is RACISM.
What you fail to explain to me is why there is a greater propensity for black people to make “bad choices”, than it is for whites? Whats the ROOT of that discrepancy? Why is your refuge to live in an overwhelmingly white area, with white residents and white elected officials running things? Why is it that the non-racial reasons for you choices seem to map out in a racial effect? You are not against black people; just crime….which leads you away from black people. You are not against black people, just government corruption, which leads you away from black people. You are not against black people, just people who make bad choices, which lead you away from black people. It seems that all the things that you don’t like, leads you away from black people, despite not having anything against black people. You don’t see a problem with your reasoning? You don’t see denial anywhere in that? It’s like a man telling his girlfriend that he is not attracted to other women, despite him always staring at other women. Each time the girlfriend catches and confronts him about what he was looking at, he says he was just looking in that direction, but not really looking at the ladies backside or top…lol. It’s Funny how we always happened to be looking in the direction of beautiful attractive women….isn’t it? Hmmmmm....coincidence or conspiracy....lol. What’s not so funny is how people like you always seem to be looking in the direction of black people, when you talk about behaviors that you don’t like, despite your claims of not being racist.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 04-14-2010 at 08:25 AM..
Daniel, remember that I noted that arguments that seek to extrapolate that what is true of a part is thus true for the whole……are fallacious. What you are trying to tell me is that you and your family represent the microcosm of white families, in your opinion. That may or may not be true, but you certainly have not demonstrated that what was true of your family was true of all or most white families. How could you….for you don’t even know 1 percent of them? You can make the argument for your family and your family only…..and that’s it. The riots did not cover the 135 square miles of the city. It was concentrated around 12th street. Most whites watched it from TV and did not see tanks rolling down their street like your family did. So I seriously doubt that your family experience serves as a microcosm of what the experience of whites was in the city. So yes, your opinion and experience counts for something and I am giving you FULL credit for that, which is YOUR FAMILIES EXPERIENCE. I am not giving you any credit in your argument that your family experience as white people speaks for all or the majority of white people who left the city.
Its seems that nowadays, whites cannot and will not admit or address white racism without attempting to normalize or neutralize it by saying things like “Blacks are just as racist too” or "It happens on both sides"..ie...its a wash. Do you understand that you are playing a psychological game with yourself? It’s a form of cognitive dissonance. Anything that is perceived as bad, that white folks do, you want to draw equivalence with black people. “Oh blacks are just as racist as whites”! Are you arguing that blacks are just as human as whites? Well, why don’t you make the same argument in regards to personal responsibility, work ethic, propensities toward crime, intellect and the like? What you are saying through omission and commission is that we are not as good as you in the good things you do, but we are just as bad as you in the bad things you do….such as racism. In other words...your superior. The truth is that there is no controlled environment to prove that blacks are just as racist as whites. You see, blacks don’t have a 300 plus year history of enslaving and writing laws to oppress white people and propagating a doctrine of white inferiority. As the saying goes, you can attract more bees with honey than you can with vinegar. Why you think blacks would be attracted to whites with all the vinegar you spread the last 300 years has me at a loss. Blacks have RESENTMENT, whites have RACISM. Group narcissism is a basic human tendency and blacks have that as well as whites. Degrees above that baseline for blacks are due to RESENTMENT of mistreatment and degrees above that for whites is RACISM.
What you fail to explain to me is why there is a greater propensity for black people to make “bad choices”, than it is for whites? Whats the ROOT of that discrepancy? Why is your refuge to live in an overwhelmingly white area, with white residents and white elected officials running things? Why is it that the non-racial reasons for you choices seem to map out in a racial effect? You are not against black people; just crime….which leads you away from black people. You are not against black people, just government corruption, which leads you away from black people. You are not against black people, just people who make bad choices, which lead you away from black people. It seems that all the things that you don’t like, leads you away from black people, despite not having anything against black people. You don’t see a problem with your reasoning? You don’t see denial anywhere in that? It’s like a man telling his girlfriend that he is not attracted to other women, despite him always staring at other women. Each time the girlfriend catches and confronts him about what he was looking at, he says he was just looking in that direction, but not really looking at the ladies backside or top…lol. It’s Funny how we always happened to be looking in the direction of beautiful attractive women….isn’t it? Hmmmmm....coincidence or conspiracy....lol. What’s not so funny is how people like you always seem to be looking in the direction of black people, when you talk about behaviors that you don’t like, despite your claims of not being racist.
Your right, my family is not identical to every white family. However we are an average white family, and our reasons for being part of the white flight would be considered common. I never claimed to represent all white people. I cannot accept your point of view when it comes to white racism. You do not seem to be able to understand the fact that most white people who left the city did so because of thier fear of the crime and violence. You seem to think that we use the conditions in Detroit as a reason to accept white supremest views. I can see that I will never convince you that we do not view things that way. If our disaproval of Detroits crime violence and corruption in your mind makes us racist, then fine you can call me a racist all you want. Detroits conditions do disgust me, anger me, so make whatever judgements you wish against me for that. Now your position that blacks cannot be racist, simply because they have a right to be resentful is plain rubbish. Ive heard that one before, and I will never accept that. No black man alive in America today was ever a slave, and at least 1/2 never experienced segregation. Civil rights laws were passed in the 50s and 60s. Unless you are over 50, the discrimination of that era really did not affect you. Also years of liberal programs, affirmative action have been in place with the intent of making it easier for blacks to get jobs and an education. The modern black person has NO RIGHT to keep whining about history. The reason there is a socioeconomic difference between whites and blacks has nothing to do with racism, or an unfair disadvatage. I have no idea what the root of this internal cultural problem is within the black community, but white people are not to blame. You also mention the fact that I choose to live in a white town, and a place with low crime. Well yes I do, and I think most people like to be around people like themselves, although I would have no problem with having black neighbors. Now you suggest I live in a low crime area to avoid blacks, well I live a low crime area to avoid CRIMINALS. I dont care what color they are, I do not want to be shot at, ripped off or carjacked. IF that makes me a racist then oh well, ill be one then. You really do seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder against white people, so Im sorry if someone has done something to you to put it there. Your post do show your an educated and intelligent person, but your bitterness towards whites cannot be hidden. There are some really racist white people, but they are an extreme minority. Most of us are not the racist you think we are, we are not out to get black people and we do not see ourselves as superior. God created us all equal, but the devil has influenced us when it comes to all the racial bickering that goes on. I wish I could say something to remove that bitterness, but I know I cannot. I have not been trying to offend you with my posts, but rather trying to help you understand what SOME of us (white people) may be thinking regarding race relations and Detroit. Id rather you know what we are truly thinking rather than jump to the wrong conclusions about us.
This thread isn't about race or crime or why Detroit fell. It's about why I consider it the best damn city in the United States of America, and why anyone else who shares the love for it does too!
I'm a lurker who is moving back to Detroit due to work. I agree that we should get it back on topic. I was hoping to read all about why people love my hometown and instead it's the old white vs. black thing again. Give it a rest already!
No one CARES about why someone's family left ages ago... it is irrelevant to the thread. This is one of the biggest problems with the region. No one wants to just let bygones be bygones.
Agreed Xer! I hope to move up for work sometime, but will probably have to wait until the economy fares better
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