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Because I'm smart/skeptical enough to spot most diet scams.
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You must not have read it. I've looked up the studies he sites and he is spot on!
Fine. Let's hear your rebuttal to this post, specifically the parts where he is called out for using flawed studies and ignoring those that disagree with his premise, and then we can take the debate from there.
Sounds like a self professed Paleo dieter to me. Of course you actually admit to breaking a major rule of Paleo diets and yet still claim to be one, producing maximum lolz, but the point still stands.
Ahh yes, the Paleo dieters who aren't really Paleo. Isn't that kinda like being a Christian but then praying to Satan?
If you're eating dairy (and you are) then you are not actually doing Paleo, but yet you will chock up your gains to a Paleo diet.
I dont know if you've ever spoken from anyone from the paleo community... but the majority really are open to learning and evolving their diet habits based on new findings and ideas... You seem to be stuck on one diet, or a mass media perception of the idea of eating paleo. I have no clue why you would be so anti a community that are advocates for organic eating, and strength training...
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The failed logic is strong in this one.
Oh it's definitely another topic. I could write a small book on why the paleo diet is retarded but since we're on the topic maybe you can explain to me why a diet based entirely off the assumptions of our prehistoric brethren's diet (which was really "eat whatever the **** we can find) is even remotely logical when you consider that their average life expectancy was about 25-50% of current humans?
True... but infancy death rate was much higher, and there werent any medical advances like today... But this is a debate I dont really care about... Why does it matter how this all began, I cant see the downside of getting away from processed foods... Sure, there are hardcore raw food no dairy people out there, but that really isnt the majority of the paleo community.
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I'd say post 34 brought a pretty substantial amount of science, all of which completely blew Taubes' claims out of the water despite you apparently believing in and following his diet. That was a pretty good start.
I'm not here to defend Taubes, I just support the fact that he questioned the current system... which seems to be failing us.
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Oh, now it's a "random" formula? I'd love to hear that explanation.
Alright, random wasnt the correct word to use there.... Extremely generalized may be a better choice. Either way, cal counting just isnt something that many people will keep up their entire lives... so why not find a better way to control yourself, and live healthy.
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You are meshing two different ideas here when they shouldn't be meshed. The type of calories (fat/protein/carbs) are important in setting a macro nutrient ratios which...surprise!...requires calorie counting. You have to set your macros within a set calorie limit.
Real simple stuff here dude.
Isnt this what I've been saying though... My feeling is, and let me type in clearly again... All calories arent created equally. Carbs, proteins and fats are all broken down differently. The body doesnt just see a calorie. Which means, all calories arent created equal. Thats my point, a point most will agree on.
Now, to go further on this, I have learned, within myself... The final number of calories arent all that important... it really breaks down to the amount of simple carbs I ingest. Now, on a normal day, I dont overeat much if at all over my suggested cals, but I also dont track. I dont track ratios, I dont track total carbs... I just eat what makes sense for my body. I think that way of looking at eating makes more sense as a whole.
By me saying, I dont think cals in vs cals out is the whole story, I'm say that the type of cal you eat is as, if not more important that the amount. A person can overeat the things that are good for them, BUT unless they have a food addiction... They wont overdue it, and if they do it wont be often, unless theres a psychological issue
I dont know if you've ever spoken from anyone from the paleo community... but the majority really are open to learning and evolving their diet habits based on new findings and ideas... You seem to be stuck on one diet, or a mass media perception of the idea of eating paleo. I have no clue why you would be so anti a community that are advocates for organic eating, and strength training...
I've been lifting weights, playing sports and generally interested in fitness for a solid 15 years now. In that time I've interacted with more paleo fans than I can count, both in person and on the 4 or 5 fitness related forums I visit, so yeah, I have a pretty good idea what they're all about. As a whole the paleo community is full of of two types of people...the extremely dogmatic true believers and the fanboys who do it because it's the new fad and makes them feel like a Spartan warrior or some other such bull****. The first group is completely beyond help as you can use all the science in the world to expose the nonsense that is the paleo diet and they simply refuse to break out of their dogma. The second group is equally annoying and even more prevalent, but they are not really true believers. These are the people who talk about how great Paleo is while downing a whey protein shake. These people are paleo dieters in the same way that people who eat fish are vegetarians.
As for being "anti-paleo" it actually has nothing to do with the way they suggest organic eating. That in itself is fine. It's when they take it to absurd religious zealotry standards by condemning an entire food group (dairy) with absolutely zero scientific backing that they draw my ire.
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True... but infancy death rate was much higher, and there werent any medical advances like today... But this is a debate I dont really care about... Why does it matter how this all began, I cant see the downside of getting away from processed foods... Sure, there are hardcore raw food no dairy people out there, but that really isnt the majority of the paleo community.
I know I'm being repetitive here, but I cannot hammer this point home enough. If you eat dairy, you are not a paleo dieter. It's contradictory to the very meaning of the word "paleolithic".
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I'm not here to defend Taubes, I just support the fact that he questioned the current system... which seems to be failing us.
Questioning "the system" is all well and good, but like Lyle McDonald said, replacing one moronic idea with another still leaves you with a moronic idea, and that is all Taubes has done.
As for "the system" failing us...it is not the system. It's the fact that Americans in general eat a substantially larger calorie load and are more sedentary than other cultures. Trying to make a boogeyman out of insulin or carbs is not the answer.
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Alright, random wasnt the correct word to use there.... Extremely generalized may be a better choice.
I'd have a tough time characterizing a formula that requires very accurate inputs to give you an accurate answer as "generalized".
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Either way, cal counting just isnt something that many people will keep up their entire lives... so why not find a better way to control yourself, and live healthy.
Isnt this what I've been saying though... My feeling is, and let me type in clearly again... All calories arent created equally. Carbs, proteins and fats are all broken down differently. The body doesnt just see a calorie. Which means, all calories arent created equal. Thats my point, a point most will agree on.
Now, to go further on this, I have learned, within myself... The final number of calories arent all that important... it really breaks down to the amount of simple carbs I ingest. Now, on a normal day, I dont overeat much if at all over my suggested cals, but I also dont track. I dont track ratios, I dont track total carbs... I just eat what makes sense for my body. I think that way of looking at eating makes more sense as a whole.
By me saying, I dont think cals in vs cals out is the whole story, I'm say that the type of cal you eat is as, if not more important that the amount. A person can overeat the things that are good for them, BUT unless they have a food addiction... They wont overdue it, and if they do it wont be often, unless theres a psychological issue
The difference in the way your body breaks down different calories is so small its not even worth stressing over as you should be focused on a proper macro nutrient balance.
I've been lifting weights, playing sports and generally interested in fitness for a solid 15 years now. In that time I've interacted with more paleo fans than I can count, both in person and on the 4 or 5 fitness related forums I visit, so yeah, I have a pretty good idea what they're all about. As a whole the paleo community is full of of two types of people...the extremely dogmatic true believers and the fanboys who do it because it's the new fad and makes them feel like a Spartan warrior or some other such bull****. The first group is completely beyond help as you can use all the science in the world to expose the nonsense that is the paleo diet and they simply refuse to break out of their dogma. The second group is equally annoying and even more prevalent, but they are not really true believers. These are the people who talk about how great Paleo is while downing a whey protein shake. These people are paleo dieters in the same way that people who eat fish are vegetarians.
Well I dont consider myself paleo, I simply said, out of everything people recognize in the normal diet realm, thats what I eat more closely with. If its pseudo paleo or not... I dont eat simple carbs, limit my complex, dont vilify fats, and eat as organic as possible... Throw me into whatever category you want. Fitness wise, I just happen to be a bigger fan of strength over cardio, I dont do crossfit or anything like that though. Just happens to be the name for this group of people now. I personally dont care if I'm considered paleo or not, I'm eating the way I feel is right for me.
As for being "anti-paleo" it actually has nothing to do with the way they suggest organic eating. That in itself is fine. It's when they take it to absurd religious zealotry standards by condemning an entire food group (dairy) with absolutely zero scientific backing that they draw my ire.
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I know I'm being repetitive here, but I cannot hammer this point home enough. If you eat dairy, you are not a paleo dieter. It's contradictory to the very meaning of the word "paleolithic".
ok? Who really cares... I dont put some religious belief into how I eat. I dont eat organic or cut out sugars because of some higher belief of "this is what man is supposed to eat." I've just found that I feel better, and am healthier on this type of diet
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Questioning "the system" is all well and good, but like Lyle McDonald said, replacing one moronic idea with another still leaves you with a moronic idea, and that is all Taubes has done.
That may be the case, but the mere fact that it is questioned may be enough to inspire someone to try something new
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As for "the system" failing us...it is not the system. It's the fact that Americans in general eat a substantially larger calorie load and are more sedentary than other cultures. Trying to make a boogeyman out of insulin or carbs is not the answer.
Sure, I agree. We do eat too much, but... I think part of that reason is due to the heavy focus of out system on foods that dont fill us up long enough.
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I'd have a tough time characterizing a formula that requires very accurate inputs to give you an accurate answer as "generalized".
There are many guys out there with my stats, but I dont think each and everyone of our bodies needs exactly the same thing every day... I'm not saying its a bad jumping off part... I just think too much is focused on cals
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The difference in the way your body breaks down different calories is so small its not even worth stressing over as you should be focused on a proper macro nutrient balance.
I havent found that to be the case in my body... Maybe in yours, but when I eat a carb heavy diet, I need to consume more cals to feel full through the day... When I do limit my cals to the suggested amount, and lower, I'm always hungry. So, I really dont believe its that minor, atleast within my body. I think I do have a proper balance, for me.
I'm not an advocate of any diet... I've really just found a way of eating that works for me. If your goal here is to convince me that the number of cals I consume is more important then what I consume in a day, its a losing battle.
I'm aware I have a lot to learn about nutrition. If you feel that low carb diets work because fats and proteins fill you up on less cals, therefore putting you into a calorie deficit, thats fine. I am not saying I dont believe thats true, I'm saying that learning which foods fill you up on less is more important then figuring out how many calories you need to eat. The reason why I feel strongly that Cals in VS Cals out isnt the full picture, is because it doesnt promote healthy eating... It normally just gives someone a goal of how much to eat (and sometimes at what ratios)... When I cal counted, and at the end of the day if I had 200 cals to spare, I'd have a snack, no matter what, hungry or not... because I felt justified that I could, since I didnt yet hit some arbitrary number...
Now, I eat a snack if I need a snack (or its a special occasion of course). Have a certain number to eat up to or down to seems a bit odd.
I am part of a low carb board too, and someone posted "what should I eat if I havent made it up to my daily carb allowance" I think this is just as bad as cal counting... Who cares what your total number of carbs were that day? Are you in need of more? are you hungry? If not, why force them in??
My point, is... Learning your own bodies signals is more important then learning what 300 cals looks like on a plate.
In my own journey, I've never had an issue with portion control, I've never had an issue with bindging, I've had an issue with being satisfied. I ate too many carbs, they worked thier way through too quickly, and didnt satiate my hunger for a long enough time, so I had to eat more. I've learned that in order for me to get the correct amount of food, I need to focus on the type. I do not know enough to fully support any deeper concerns I have on exactly what a simple carb does vrs a fat in the body, but I know the end result is, I eat more if I eat too many carbs.
Once again, this is a great example of why I started avoiding sugar.
Sugar: The Bitter Truth - YouTube
I have read many things published in medical journals that agree with this. So, if we can all come out of this simply agreeing, sugar = bad, thats good enough for me. I honestly think its more then the empty calories, but the way the body breaks down these empty calories. I really dont know enough on the subject to offer a compelling argument, I can only link you to random articles that you could google yourself. Either way, there are many studies going on every year, and I can assure you "every major discovery" has not yet happend... There are new discoveries in most realms of science every year.
I know I went on a few rants about my feelings on generalizing how many cals a person needs in a given day... And I hit a nerve, sorry... We can drop it all, seriously.... I'm not here to change anyones mind, I really dont care. I know what causes me to gain weight, maybe its directly related to the amount of cals that causes me to eat, maybe not. I really really do not know, I have no plans on going an a fat fast or anything to test it out either. I've moved on from trying to find the secret in dieting... Because, I've found a way of eating that makes more sense to me then anything else has. I dont really care about cals anymore... People who want to count, feel free.
Last edited by Highwyre237; 08-15-2011 at 08:20 AM..
Well I dont consider myself paleo, I simply said, out of everything people recognize in the normal diet realm, thats what I eat more closely with. If its pseudo paleo or not... I dont eat simple carbs, limit my complex, dont vilify fats, and eat as organic as possible... Throw me into whatever category you want. Fitness wise, I just happen to be a bigger fan of strength over cardio, I dont do crossfit or anything like that though. Just happens to be the name for this group of people now. I personally dont care if I'm considered paleo or not, I'm eating the way I feel is right for me.
Just eating organic foods doesn't make you a Paleo dieter, and consuming dairy definitely means you aren't Paleo.
Since we seemingly agree on these points along with the fact that you do not follow Paleo, I think we can put this one to bed.
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That may be the case, but the mere fact that it is questioned may be enough to inspire someone to try something new
Only if it's questioned on a sound premise.
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Sure, I agree. We do eat too much, but... I think part of that reason is due to the heavy focus of out system on foods that dont fill us up long enough.
Sure, the typical western diet is crap but it's the amount of calories and lack of physical activity that makes us fat.
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If your goal here is to convince me that the number of cals I consume is more important then what I consume in a day, its a losing battle.
I'm glad to see that you're willing to admit that you're set into your dogma and will simply tune out evidence to the contrary.
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Originally Posted by Highwyre237
Let me just wrap up everything.
I'm aware I have a lot to learn about nutrition. If you feel that low carb diets work because fats and proteins fill you up on less cals, therefore putting you into a calorie deficit, thats fine. I am not saying I dont believe thats true
There is no "feel" about it. It's a physiologically proven fact.
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I'm saying that learning which foods fill you up on less is more important then figuring out how many calories you need to eat.
Why do are you having such a tough time understanding that these are not contradictory statements? They essentially go hand in hand and any diet with proper macros is going to get you both results.
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The reason why I feel strongly that Cals in VS Cals out isnt the full picture, is because it doesnt promote healthy eating... It normally just gives someone a goal of how much to eat (and sometimes at what ratios)... When I cal counted, and at the end of the day if I had 200 cals to spare, I'd have a snack, no matter what, hungry or not... because I felt justified that I could, since I didnt yet hit some arbitrary number...
Once again, you're ignoring the other part of the equation (macronutrient content) in making your argument.
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Once again, this is a great example of why I started avoiding sugar.
Sugar: The Bitter Truth - YouTube
I have read many things published in medical journals that agree with this. So, if we can all come out of this simply agreeing, sugar = bad, thats good enough for me. I honestly think its more then the empty calories, but the way the body breaks down these empty calories. I really dont know enough on the subject to offer a compelling argument, I can only link you to random articles that you could google yourself. Either way, there are many studies going on every year, and I can assure you "every major discovery" has not yet happend... There are new discoveries in most realms of science every year.
I'm very glad you posted this video as Dr. Lustig actually had the nerve to go toe to toe with Alan Aragon and some of his friends on this debate...and Lustig got his ass handed to him.
The second link is basically just cliff notes of the debate that took place in the comment section of the first link. I highly recommend reading through both of them though as you'll see how another "man of science" tries to peddle half truth and fallacies only to get called on it by other men of science.
Then come back here and tell me if you're still afraid of sugar.
Just eating organic foods doesn't make you a Paleo dieter, and consuming dairy definitely means you aren't Paleo.
Since we seemingly agree on these points along with the fact that you do not follow Paleo, I think we can put this one to bed.
ok, no worries there... but keep an eye on the paleo, or now "ancestral" movement... because there really are constant changes within the group. Sure, you have radicals in every group of people, but not all.
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Only if it's questioned on a sound premise.
Sure, the typical western diet is crap but it's the amount of calories and lack of physical activity that makes us fat.
and as I've been saying, I agree thats part of the story, but I dont think thats everything, but we can put that to bed too.
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I'm glad to see that you're willing to admit that you're set into your dogma and will simply tune out evidence to the contrary.
I'm just saying, that due to the results I am getting myself, this is the way I plan on continuing to eat until I find something my body reacts better to. I'm not going to pretend I know exactly why it works so well, but I'm trying to learn the ins and out. I do, however, know that cals arents the full picture. Macronutrians arent the full picture either, the better quality the food, the better the results with me...
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There is no "feel" about it. It's a physiologically proven fact.
Why do are you having such a tough time understanding that these are not contradictory statements? They essentially go hand in hand and any diet with proper macros is going to get you both results.
Once again, you're ignoring the other part of the equation (macronutrient content) in making your argument.
Well then I'm pretty sure you've been argueing with me about nothing... In all of my statements saying its not just cals in vs out, I followed it with, it depends on the type of cals... Thats all I was saying.
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I'm very glad you posted this video as Dr. Lustig actually had the nerve to go toe to toe with Alan Aragon and some of his friends on this debate...and Lustig got his ass handed to him.
Alan Aragon
Lustig acknowledges the First Law of Thermodynamics as it applies to changes in bodyweight. He attacks the vague expression that “a calorie is a calorie” by pointing out that different nutrients impart different physiological effects and have different roles within the body. His concluding recommendations included kicking out liquid calories except milk, which is generally a good strategy for children. Okay, so far so good.
Thats the main point I was trying to make... so I'm happy we agree there
I'm currently analyzing the data that USDA data that Aragon posted, I'll make a post about it later, maybe a new thread, but I would love to see if the claims fred made that veggy oils werent being fully reported on until 2000 but at first look the jump in added shortening and added fats and oils from 99 to 2000 seems a bit odd... I'll have to do a bit of research myself to find out why before I play with these numbers
The second link is basically just cliff notes of the debate that took place in the comment section of the first link. I highly recommend reading through both of them though as you'll see how another "man of science" tries to peddle half truth and fallacies only to get called on it by other men of science.
Then come back here and tell me if you're still afraid of sugar.
Thanks for posting this btw, there are people much smarter than either of us taking on this debate, great read. Not through it all, but I'm pretty much reading every post by everyone... I wish more blog comments pages were this informative.
I dont have a closed mind to nutrition, and may be misinformed on some things. But, right now I know whats working for me, and hopefully some of these things will help me figure out why
Last edited by Highwyre237; 08-16-2011 at 09:07 AM..
Oh I'm so excited to see that someone else has read this!
I've also read Good Calories, Bad Calories by Taubes - they're both such great books, so full of amazing information. For those of us who have a carb problem, it really clicks!
But....while I TOTALLY believe this is the right course I have had such a hard time starting and sticking to it. In fact, my boyfriend and I plan on starting again this week. (fingers crossed)
Kicking carbs is brutal!
How are you doing with cravings? Or did that all end after the first week?
One thing I found that helps me stay on low carb for an extended period is one of the cookie diet products. I always had trouble doing low carb for long. But I eat (R&D Diet Cookies) almost every morning for breakfast and the rest of the day regular low carb and it's simple, simple, simple to stay on. I'm not sure I can mention the name of the cookies in this post (if I can't please remove it Moderator). If they remove it then you have to do your own homework and find the "generic" one that is less than 10 total carbs, around a gram of sugar and I think around 3 net carbs each. There is only one that fits that description. Good Luck!
while I TOTALLY believe this is the right course, I have had such a hard time starting and sticking to it.
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Kicking carbs is brutal!
It's hard because it's not natural. Thin is natural. And the natural diet for humans is fruit-based (Ape diet) high-carb low-fat:
Have you heard the idea that fat WITH refined surar cause insulin/blood problems and weight gain. (We're designed for fruit, so we shouldn't give carbs the blame)
Many now believe Obesity, diabetes, etc, is caused by putting carbs(refined is worse) WITH fat, which nature doesn't do. The reason carbs and fat are maligned AND defended is they're only bad TOGETHER!!!!
People with candida and diabetes who started a high-fruit low-fat diet, CURED it. The key is low-fat(according to Neal Barnard, M.D. , and Dr Graham)
The reason: Too much fat blocks insulin receptors from taking glucose from the blood - leading to prolonged high levels of blood glucose, greater insulin production and insulin resistance and diabetes.
Quote from a diabetes forum:
"First couple days I spiked up to around 185 after a few oranges. Today onlywent to high 130's. By the 4th day of the low-fat diet my fasting sugar level was down to mid 80's and staying there.(evidence that it was the fat). Something unexpected certainly seems to be going on here. "
I eat a high-carb low-fat diet. I don't believe it's good; I know that it is because I've seen it in me (18 years doing it) and 98% of others following the 80/10/10 diet. Check these people OUT:
I gain weight when eating carbs I wish it weren't true.
But you're eating carbs with something else, right? And I'm going out on a limb here and guess those carbs were not fruit-by-itself, eh...am I right? So give it a try. If mother nature comes through, you can live in paradise your whole life.
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How are you doing with cravings?
The more fruit and veg 811'rs eat, the more that cravings disappear!
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I could see any carbs I ate turning into glucose and running off to LIVE on my thighs
Glucose lives in the muscles.
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At least Atkins was an actual doctor
Doctor's aren't nutritionists either.
People - cut through the biased dis-info that feeds you - and leads you - into the pill-pushers hands (I just made that up )
Dis-info people don't care about people being healthy - they just want keep people buying the meat/dairy industry's products. Its just business.
Meanwhile, I'll keep living the truth, and being as healthy and long-lived as Graham. Kloss, "the Juiceman" Kordach and Bragg.
Last edited by Sacman; 09-11-2011 at 09:53 PM..
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and guess those carbs were not fruit-by-itself, eh...am I right? So give it a try. If mother nature comes through, you can live in paradise your whole life.
