Science: No evidence that fiber and vegetables required for a healthy diet (carb, calories)

[Woof]

Originally Posted by user_id

Longevity is effected by both diet and medical technology....in the west people eat junk but modern science keeps them alive, well sorta, and they can often live into their 70's... All the countries in the top are wealthy developed nations. How many 70 year olds, or heck even 60 year olds, do you see in the US out jogging? Yet....there is no reason the majority aren't able to do this.... Poor health with age is a given in the west, science keeps people alive just in poor overall health.... Heck, I only know one 60+ year old that isn't popping pills....

It is more telling to look at rates of disease, particularly those caused by diet, and when you do that you see pretty strong relationships between meat consumption (especially red meat) and particular diseases.

Not from what I've seen. I've looked at other indicators also which are less direct, such as satisfaction with life (happiness) which wouldn't be very high if old people were being kept alive artificially.

It seems to me that longevity and health are highest in countries that have good public health systems, and are very clean and hygenic. Thus the Swiss and Icelanders live about as long as the Japanese and residents of Hong Kong, and they are healthy too, despite diets high in saturated fat and a bit low in fresh veggies.

One researcher's opinion I read a few years ago was that meat eaters can live as long as vegetarians, but then at the end of their lives they tend to die more often of cardiovascular events, while old vegetarians or fishetarians like the Japanese tend to die more often from cancer. Both are diseases of mainly of old age.

Interestingly enough, I have Swiss relatives in both the US and in Switzerland - the ones in Switzerland are lean and healthier, while the ones over here tend to be fat even on roughly the same diet, except for eating more processed foods here.

[gypsychic]

Originally Posted by user_id

Its not? Why do vegetarians live longer? Why is red meat continuously linked to disease? etc....

As for whole foods, they aren't necessarily wholesome, whole foods can be manipulated by industry. From genetically engineered crops to cows that are breed (and fed) to produce unnatural amounts of fat....

And there there is that one "food group", that the vast majority of the world can't even digest.... Funny how the "food groups" are so ethnocentric....

Who says vegetarians live longer? I'm of Spanish descent - my grandmother lived to 103 - on a Mediterranean diet including EVERY type of food group including plenty of roast pork, beef and chorizo. But no fried stuff, or processed crap. So go preach somewhere else, dude.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by Woof

... such as satisfaction with life (happiness) which wouldn't be very high if old people were being kept alive artificially.

Huh? I'm really not sure what you have in mind, but older people (heck many younger ones as well) are being kept alive "artificially". They take pills, they get major surgeries, etc.... Those are all artificial things that keep people alive, and that is perfectly fine, but the pills, the surgeries reduce your overall health.

Originally Posted by Woof

It seems to me that longevity and health are highest in countries that have good public health systems, and are very clean and hygenic.

Sure, so when eat yourself into a heart attack....those public health systems can perform the necessary surgery, give you pills, etc....and you can go back to eating yourself to death for a bit longer than those in less developed countries.


Also, as for as longevity, the numbers are look backwards. The nation today is much more overweight than it use to be, its yet to be seen how this plays out.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by gypsychic

Who says vegetarians live longer? I'm of Spanish descent - my grandmother lived to 103 - on a Mediterranean diet including EVERY type of food group including plenty of roast pork, beef and chorizo.

There are numerous studies that show vegetarians, in developed nations, live longer than meat eaters even after you control for things like smoking, etc. I'm not sure what you think your grandmother proves, not to mention that the Mediterranean diet (as discussed in nutrition) contains little to no beef.

[gypsychic]

Originally Posted by user_id

There are numerous studies that show vegetarians, in developed nations, live longer than meat eaters even after you control for things like smoking, etc. I'm not sure what you think your grandmother proves, not to mention that the Mediterranean diet (as discussed in nutrition) contains little to no beef.

I don't know what YOU think you are proving.... or why you care so much. You got a book you're pimping or something? Anyway, this drivel has become boring, so good luck with your agenda, whatever it is - I'm outta here!

[tribecavsbrowns]

Originally Posted by gypsychic

I don't know what YOU think you are proving.... or why you care so much. You got a book you're pimping or something? Anyway, this drivel has become boring, so good luck with your agenda, whatever it is - I'm outta here!

Your experience, or anyone else's, means nothing to him. That's just the way he is.

[doss1]

Originally Posted by user_id

Its not? Why do vegetarians live longer? Why is red meat continuously linked to disease? etc....

But, correlation does not equal causality. Yes, vegetarians may live longer, but that's because most of them are healthier in other aspects. Red meat eaters are often lumped with smokers, alcoholics, etc., since they do not normally care about their bodies. This is why we may see that red meat eaters don't live as long. Still, it probably is not the red meat that is killing them off, rather, the environment they reside in (lack of exercise, social acceptance, depression, etc). This is one of reasons why we should take those meat studies with a grain of salt (no pun intended).

Edit: I see you mentioned taking smoking into account for vegetarians, but i'd like to see those studies, if any.

[MUTGR]

Originally Posted by doss1

But, correlation does not equal causality. Yes, vegetarians may live longer, but that's because most of them are healthier in other aspects. Red meat eaters are often lumped with smokers, alcoholics, etc., since they do not normally care about their bodies. This is why we may see that red meat eaters don't live as long. Still, it probably is not the red meat that is killing them off, rather, the environment they reside in (lack of exercise, social acceptance, depression, etc). This is one of reasons why we should take those meat studies with a grain of salt (no pun intended).

Edit: I see you mentioned taking smoking into account for vegetarians, but i'd like to see those studies, if any.

Not to mention vegetarians have more mental disorders:

Vegetarian diet and mental disorde... [Int J Behav Nutr Phys Act. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI#

[Woof]

Originally Posted by user_id

Huh? I'm really not sure what you have in mind, but older people (heck many younger ones as well) are being kept alive "artificially". They take pills, they get major surgeries, etc.... Those are all artificial things that keep people alive, and that is perfectly fine, but the pills, the surgeries reduce your overall health.


Sure, so when eat yourself into a heart attack....those public health systems can perform the necessary surgery, give you pills, etc....and you can go back to eating yourself to death for a bit longer than those in less developed countries.


Also, as for as longevity, the numbers are look backwards. The nation today is much more overweight than it use to be, its yet to be seen how this plays out.

Please show some evidence that vegetarians are healthier and use fewer pills and surgeries, corrected for obesity. What I'm claiming is that it's the obesity causing the poor health rather than the meat eating, but countries that eat lots of meat such as in Europe don't seem to overeat until they start building a lot of McDonalds.

The only evidence I've seen for vegetarians living slightly longer and healthier is Seventh Day Adventists, who have other factors that might cause that - such as better social/family values, and more home-cooked unprocessed foods. On the other hand, India is the country with the most vegetarians, and yet has poor health and longevity, even compared to thirdworld nations that eat meat (such as many Muslim countries).

I suppose that meat-eating can be a bit of a risk factor in societies that have long been able to afford all the meat they want, but that's only because meat is much more calorie-dense and easily absorbed than veggies ...... but if the meat eaters have suitably small portions, as with gypsychic's grandmother, then they wouldn't become obese and thus have a higher risk of illnesses.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by Woof

Please show some evidence that vegetarians are healthier and use fewer pills and surgeries, corrected for obesity. What I'm claiming is that it's the obesity causing the poor health rather than the meat eating, but countries that eat lots of meat such as in Europe don't seem to overeat until they start building a lot of McDonalds.

I never suggested that vegetarians use less pills or surgeries, just that they have a bit higher life expectancy even after you control for smoking, etc. Vegetarians don't necessarily eat well though, removing meat from your diet doesn't magically make it healthful.

Obesity is an issue, but obesity is directly related to what you eat. Americans eat more meat than Europeans and Europeans have an obesity problem as well, its just worse in the US.

Excessive meat consumption is by no means the only problem in the American diet though...

Originally Posted by Woof

On the other hand, India is the country with the most vegetarians, and yet has poor health and longevity, even compared to thirdworld nations that eat meat (such as many Muslim countries).

India has a population of 1.2 billion, ~400 million of which live in poverty. And still, they manage to have life expectancy rates that are inline with nations with less poverty. I'm not sure what nation you have in mind, but mid-east nations have far less poverty than India.

Originally Posted by Woof

I suppose that meat-eating can be a bit of a risk factor in societies that have long been able to afford all the meat they want, but that's only because meat is much more calorie-dense and easily absorbed than veggies .....

Than veggies? Yes... but not plant food in general. Protein and carbohydrates have the same amount of calories, its all about the fat content. A lean piece of meat isn't that calorie dense, its the fatty meats that are calorie dense. Americans create unnaturally fat animals for consumption....