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Old 11-27-2012, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 10,487,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lastra View Post
Hi Claudhopper,

I'm sorry my thread pissed you off. I never said that I don't like the way Dobies look naturally, I just said that I like the cropped look aka prefer it, probably because the Dobies I grew up with ( neighbor's dogs ) had cropped ears. As a matter of fact, I've never seen uncropped Dobies in person. But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't love the way my puppy would look. The looks aren't so important to me like you think they are, I chose the breed based on their intelligence, temperament, loyalty etc. I obviously also like the way they look, but that wasn't the driving force behind my "pick". If that was so important to me, I obviously wouldn't be on this forum asking for people's opinions, and would've just told the breeder/my vet to crop them.

Anyway, I did decide to leave her ears alone. She will be a family pet, and most likely not a show dog, so I will just let her ears be, and post pictures when she gets here.
Thank God and thank you for that response.
I was thinking about what dogs have cropped ears, dobes and pitbulls, why? Because they look more badass and intimidating that way. I'm so glad you decided to leave them natural. They are beautiful dogs, very muscular, broad chested, like a pit. All the best to you and yours.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 10,487,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by City Guy997S View Post
And remember this is AMERICA, you can make decisions for yourself. The land of the free is clearly turning into the land of the politically correct nonsense!
This has nothing to do with political correctness It's about not causing an animal unnecessary suffering for a certain look - actually that is more politically correct than not doing it and leaving them natural.
With that said, I am all for spay and neuter, because that helps prolong their lives, prevents wandering and tones down territorial aggression, plus stems the tide of homeless and abused flowing into shelters. That is responsible guardianship, the other doesn't do anybody any good, but may be a sense of pride for people like yourself.
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:16 PM
 
1,015 posts, read 2,195,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxywench View Post
the crop was NEVER meant to make the dog look mean/agressive, it was for the potection of the dog, the fact that it made the dog look more ALERT was an added "bonus" to its purpose...
the purpose was to prevent none-to-wards from grabbyng the dog by a sensitve area (ears an tail) and thus the tail was removed and the ears cropped VERY short (in what today would be called combat or Battle crop in pitties)
todays crops are nothing but a cosmetic preference, even the "military" (short crop typically done on working dobies) is much too long for its orignal purpose...too much "soft skin" left behind to provide, way too much left for someone to grab.
Yeap, and like she stated in another post many of the crops had more of a shorter bell, than today's crop. This includes included ALL working breeds at the time, however that purpose has changed for purely "show." Although some breeds like the Pits, Corso, Presa, Dogos etc still retain that look.

People you see "pimping" with their dogs do that crop or not. As they also had padlocks and chains with other useless accessories to make a dog look meaner.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:54 PM
 
Location: North Western NJ
6,591 posts, read 22,727,714 times
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and THATS my issue, i simply dont agree with doing anything purely for show...
if its a working dog who would benefit in reguards to health and safety from a crop/dock (ie hog catching dogs, dogs being used as working personal protection dogs, livestock guardians ect) and sporting a FUNCTIONAL one then i have MUCH less of an issue with such procedures...but just so the ears can stand all tall (and in my opinion it looks silly because there so disproportionate) simply because its what the human considers beautiful, then why not get a dog that already has upright ears?

my other problem lays in communication, dogs use thier ears to communicate and whle they dont loos all function after a crop, thier "new" ears are completly man made and thus their normal movment (and ability to use them to communicate) is altered in an unnatural way for them...
in my experience in dog park and dog daycare setting docked and cropped ogs tend to get into more scuffles, NOT because they are any more or less agressive than any other dog in the place but because they are lacking methods of communication and other dogs cannot read their signals as well...
kinda like chopping off 1/2 of each finger of a deaf person...they can still get the basic gesture but the "finer points" cannot be reproduced without the "tools" that is the tips of their fingers...dogs ar emuch the same with thier ear and tails...there the punctuation within a sentence in essence.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 10,487,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxywench View Post
and THATS my issue, i simply dont agree with doing anything purely for show...
if its a working dog who would benefit in reguards to health and safety from a crop/dock (ie hog catching dogs, dogs being used as working personal protection dogs, livestock guardians ect) and sporting a FUNCTIONAL one then i have MUCH less of an issue with such procedures...but just so the ears can stand all tall (and in my opinion it looks silly because there so disproportionate) simply because its what the human considers beautiful, then why not get a dog that already has upright ears?

my other problem lays in communication, dogs use thier ears to communicate and whle they dont loos all function after a crop, thier "new" ears are completly man made and thus their normal movment (and ability to use them to communicate) is altered in an unnatural way for them...
in my experience in dog park and dog daycare setting docked and cropped ogs tend to get into more scuffles, NOT because they are any more or less agressive than any other dog in the place but because they are lacking methods of communication and other dogs cannot read their signals as well...
kinda like chopping off 1/2 of each finger of a deaf person...they can still get the basic gesture but the "finer points" cannot be reproduced without the "tools" that is the tips of their fingers...dogs ar emuch the same with thier ear and tails...there the punctuation within a sentence in essence.
Agree. If people read about acupressure points and massage techniques, the tips of the ears are very sensitive to dogs, and massaging them can be very relaxing for them. They have their purpose.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:18 PM
 
1,015 posts, read 2,195,609 times
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Foxy its all good I don't understand the long show crops but I don't fault people pet or show who have/want them. Although I do get annoyed when people choose to crop because "its what the judge wants." What happened to improving the breed not the trend in the ring.

Hmm..., that's an interesting concept about the communication. I don't agree with it but I never heard of that testimony before.

PS there's only so many times I can rep you, hahaha.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:27 PM
 
7,094 posts, read 14,657,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildnFree View Post
Mind you the following is my opinion.

The same can be said for those saying that the dogs do feel pain of the procedure. I treat my dogs like dogs, meaning I don't humanize them. People don't realize that dogs handle pain a lot differently than we do. I've seen dogs sustain injuries that are cringe and flinch worthy. Yet the dog carries on wagging tail and all. If you've been hunting or seen working dogs in action you will understand.

The only discomfort that the pup may experience in from the anesthesia, groggy whimpering, etc. After a few hours the pup is back to normal.

Many of you say that cropping and tail docking is mutilation......well to me spaying and neutering is mutilation. I understand it is necessary for the majority of the clueless owners out there, but its something I don't agree with. Except with cats for obvious reasons.

Either way it should be up to the owner to do the research and understand BOTH sides of the situation. I don't think people should feel any less for their decision.
Spaying and neutering has many health benefits for the animal, in addition to the benefits to a society already overrun with unwanted pets, and preventing even more from being born only to be abandoned, to suffer and starve or be abused. Why do people who are "pro mutilating" of animals always try to use the spay/neuter argument? It's apples to oranges, as the saying goes.

Cutting an animal's ears or tail (or amputating their toes or debarking, for that matter) for human vanity or human convenience...it just seems like typical human selfishness and their need to control "lesser" beings. Human nature, you could say, but this is one nature I wish humans would not give in to. Thank goodness this practice is being outlawed in more enlightened cultures, anyway. Perhaps there is hope for the USA, someday.

Last edited by catsmom21; 11-27-2012 at 08:36 PM..
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:37 AM
 
1,015 posts, read 2,195,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsmom21 View Post
Spaying and neutering has many health benefits for the animal, in addition to the benefits to a society already overrun with unwanted pets, and preventing even more from being born only to be abandoned, to suffer and starve or be abused. Why do people who are "pro mutilating" of animals always try to use the spay/neuter argument? It's apples to oranges, as the saying goes.

Cutting an animal's ears or tail (or amputating their toes or debarking, for that matter) for human vanity or human convenience...it just seems like typical human selfishness and their need to control "lesser" beings. Human nature, you could say, but this is one nature I wish humans would not give in to. Thank goodness this practice is being outlawed in more enlightened cultures, anyway. Perhaps there is hope for the USA, someday.
Were going off topic here....but I'll answer

To me S/N is for human benefit, people can't handle their dog being a dog. ( cats are a different story LOL!) Go to any store that allows pets you see owners struggling with dogs of all sizes to "behave." Compared to those that actually TRAIN and MODERATE their pets. Just because your pet is S/N does not mean one is more "responsible" than another. I've met plenty of irresponsible S/N animals and the problem ALWAYS lies with the opposite end of the leash. These are the people to blame for overpopulation, dog attacks, poor breeding etc.

Anti-crop/dock say leave the dog "natural" how is cutting off reproductive organs "natural?" There are health benefits to whole animals as well, especially in our large and giant breeds. Personally I don't see as apples to oranges, in the end BOTH go under surgery selfishly for human benefit. There are countries that won't S/N a healthy dog, unless there is a medical reason. Yet they don't have the problems like they do in the US.

I'm proud that the USA is open minded and allows people the choice to choose as they please.

I agree with debarking though. I don't see the reason for that, what's the point in getting a dog?
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 10,487,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildnFree View Post
Were going off topic here....but I'll answer

To me S/N is for human benefit, people can't handle their dog being a dog. ( cats are a different story LOL!) Go to any store that allows pets you see owners struggling with dogs of all sizes to "behave." Compared to those that actually TRAIN and MODERATE their pets. Just because your pet is S/N does not mean one is more "responsible" than another. I've met plenty of irresponsible S/N animals and the problem ALWAYS lies with the opposite end of the leash. These are the people to blame for overpopulation, dog attacks, poor breeding etc.

Anti-crop/dock say leave the dog "natural" how is cutting off reproductive organs "natural?" There are health benefits to whole animals as well, especially in our large and giant breeds. Personally I don't see as apples to oranges, in the end BOTH go under surgery selfishly for human benefit. There are countries that won't S/N a healthy dog, unless there is a medical reason. Yet they don't have the problems like they do in the US.

I'm proud that the USA is open minded and allows people the choice to choose as they please.

I agree with debarking though. I don't see the reason for that, what's the point in getting a dog?
You are wrong! It is not a matter of training or "handling", it's a need to procreate, it's natures way. If you eliminate that need, that desire, then they are able to focus on you, they are more attentive. It helps to have it done early, it's less painful, and their mindset is not ingrained. In other words, if you have an aggressive male that is altered later in life, you may not experience the behavior change that you would have, if it was done earlier. It is much easier on females to have it done as early as possible, because they recover quickly.

Quote:
Pet overpopulation and euthanasia are a continuing problem. Be a part of the solution: spay or neuter your pets.

Spaying or neutering your dog is an important part of responsible pet ownership. Unneutered male dogs that are not able to mate experience frustration, which can lead to aggression. Unspayed female dogs attract unwanted attention every six months. From a psychological and biological point-of-view, it is the best thing for your dog.

The perpetuation of myths about spaying and neutering and the high cost cause many people to avoid the procedures, but the fact is sterilization makes your dog a better behaved, healthier pet and will save you money in the long run.
Read more: Spay and Neuter Myths | Dog Whisperer Cesar Millan

The cost is by weight, so the younger they are, they less costly the procedure, and the less traumatic for them.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:24 PM
 
1,015 posts, read 2,195,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
You are wrong! It is not a matter of training or "handling", it's a need to procreate, it's natures way. If you eliminate that need, that desire, then they are able to focus on you, they are more attentive. It helps to have it done early, it's less painful, and their mindset is not ingrained. In other words, if you have an aggressive male that is altered later in life, you may not experience the behavior change that you would have, if it was done earlier. It is much easier on females to have it done as early as possible, because they recover quickly.



Read more: Spay and Neuter Myths | Dog Whisperer Cesar Millan

The cost is by weight, so the younger they are, they less costly the procedure, and the less traumatic for them.

If you disagree that's fine, but please don't tell me I'm wrong.

I disagree it IS training. The false adverdtising is that once a person S/N their pets these behavior problems go away. Pyschological and behavioral problems can and do occur in S/N pets. People like Cesar determine the cause and adminster solutions accordingly helping people and pets be as one.

Depending on the dog, chances are S/N may not help a dog that is truly "aggressive." There are too many factors to consider, while S/N may help and eliminate the chances of this dog passing trait to others. There's stil too many factors into play, genetic, environmental, etc.

Dogs and cats everyday are S/N at ALL ages usually the healthy ones do bounce back.

Again we are going off topic. The OP decided to leave their dog natural and their quereies were answered.
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