Question for dog experts regarding no-bark collars at dog parks (bite, barking)
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My 1.5 year old sharpei mix is quite the protective barker, he barks at home when he hears weird noises like the wind and leaves blowing He barks when he hears basically anything...
We worked with a private trainer and he has been trained on a no-bark collar. HE KNOWS when it is on him that barking results in a shock so he rarely ever barks with it on. I have used it sucessfully when I have friends dogs come over who he would normally bark at and whatnot and it also keeps him from barking at other dogs and the neighbors/ neighbors dogs from beyond the fence.
So basically the collar has proven sucessful at preventing barking and therefore escalation for both other dogs and humans.
One of the big challenges I currently have with him is that when we go to the doggy park he occasionally finds a person, typically and older man/woman with facial hair or a nice big hat that he decides he doesnt like and he barks like a lunatic at them and runs around them in circles. obviously this is not good doggy behavior and i want to do my best to stop it. do you guys think putting the shock collar on him at the dog park would be an effective way of dettering this behavior? personally I think it would work well based on the way he behaves at home with the collar on vs without the collar on.
I do not think that bark collars are appropriate in situations where there are other dogs. Barking is a method dogs use to communicate with each other, and by taking that away from your dog you are limiting his ability to tell other dogs how he's feeling. It is potentially dangerous, I would think.
A better option when he starts to act inappropriate is to leash him up and take him away from the source of his barking. An even better option is preventative maintenance. Play with your dog! Engage him away from people he is afraid of. Then work on desensitizing him to scary people outside of the dog park where you can have treats and build positive reinforcement scenarios.
I do not think that bark collars are appropriate in situations where there are other dogs. Barking is a method dogs use to communicate with each other, and by taking that away from your dog you are limiting his ability to tell other dogs how he's feeling. It is potentially dangerous, I would think.
A better option when he starts to act inappropriate is to leash him up and take him away from the source of his barking. An even better option is preventative maintenance. Play with your dog! Engage him away from people he is afraid of. Then work on desensitizing him to scary people outside of the dog park where you can have treats and build positive reinforcement scenarios.
That makes sense, especially since dogs at the dog park are strangers and he might feel uncomfortable if he feels he can't bark. Typically when he starts barking at someone I try to distract him and get him away from that person, usually it works but sometimes he avoids me so he can continue to bark.
I'm going to add this: if you want to use a shock type collar at a dog park, invest in a good shock collar where you control the shock with a transmitter.
It is not fair to your dog for him to get a shock because another dog has barked and the collar thinks it is your dog.
Once the dog learns about the collar, it can be set on "Beep only" and you can beep the dog and not shock him, and that will get the message to him. You can tell him "no" and only beep him of he doesn't obey.
In a dog park, you need more control than an automatically functioning bark collar gives you.
I'd be very cautious about shocking a dog for barking at a human. If he thinks the shock comes from the human he will decide that strangers are genuinely dangerous. So don't do it without the close supervision of an exceptionally good behaviorist.
I don't like the concept of removing the bark or growl from a dog who doesn't like people. You are removing the warning and the dog might learn to bite without warning. Instead of removing the bark, you really need to concentrate on teaching the dog to tolerate non-threatening strangers.
I'm going to add this: if you want to use a shock type collar at a dog park, invest in a good shock collar where you control the shock with a transmitter.
It is not fair to your dog for him to get a shock because another dog has barked and the collar thinks it is your dog.
Once the dog learns about the collar, it can be set on "Beep only" and you can beep the dog and not shock him, and that will get the message to him. You can tell him "no" and only beep him of he doesn't obey.
In a dog park, you need more control than an automatically functioning bark collar gives you.
I'd be very cautious about shocking a dog for barking at a human. If he thinks the shock comes from the human he will decide that strangers are genuinely dangerous. So don't do it without the close supervision of an exceptionally good behaviorist.
I don't like the concept of removing the bark or growl from a dog who doesn't like people. You are removing the warning and the dog might learn to bite without warning. Instead of removing the bark, you really need to concentrate on teaching the dog to tolerate non-threatening strangers.
the collar works based on vibration not noise, so it wouldn't shock him if another dog barks. Also, typically when i use the collar at home I don't even turn it on. He knows what it does and it deters him from barking. I worked with a private trainer, and got the collar on his suggestion, as my dog would bark for HOURS at his own reflection in the window. It was either stop barking incessantly, or back to the shelter at that point. The trainer was very careful about it, and told me that for some dogs no-bark collars do not work because they think the shock is caused by whatever they are barking at and not their own behavior.
I agree I need to teach the dog that he doesn't need to bark at non-threatening strangers, it often scares them and when he does it I immediately leash him and we leave if he cannot be redirected.
Out of about 60 or 70 trips to the dog park, he has had about 3 or 4 incidents of barking at strangers, and 2 incidents of barking at non-threatening dogs.
I guess my true question should have been: how do i stop him from barking at strangers?
Outside behavior starts with "training" INSIDE the house. NO BARKING at noises. And by training I mean him understanding he is not responsible for everyone's life. LOL. Meaning YOU are. It's energy - not words or always tools if your energy isn't accompanying the tool. It's a shame this trainer went to the collar and not to the root cause of him respecting you as his leader. They're so cute and can get to be punks real FAST! I assume the trainer said he is dominant not fearful? It's a tricky thing to interpret. DON'T DO ANYTHING I'M ABOUT TO SAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE IF YOUR PUP IS THE LEAST BIT DANGEROUS OR UNRELIABLE. GET HELP. Also he may need more exercise like a good 45 minutes a couple times a day if you're not doing that. Boredom and excess energy invents imaginary problems.
Funny you said Sharpei. One of my most memorable clients in my former pet store had a young Sharpei that was so hilarious (to me not her).
He could out smart her every day by finding the collar and transmitter and running out the dog door to hide it. They'd have a RACE to the kitchen counter to grab it and he always beat her. He also used to race to attack the older mild Sharpei, and that was BAD. She couldn't stop that either.
He was a perfect angel with me and his trainer without it because he respected our requests. Try being more direct in what is acceptable and not acceptable and consistent. But I think you may have your hands full with this guy at a park. Or even at home?
I would NEVER use it in a park.
Quote:
I agree I need to teach the dog that he doesn't need to bark at non-threatening strangers, it often scares them and when he does it I immediately leash him and we leave if he cannot be redirected.
Well do you have trouble handling him? IF NOT, I'd suggest don't leave. And don't REDIRECT to other things. The direction is to: CALM DOWN AND STOP right there and then in that very spot. NO excitable behavior wanted. Chances are he is NOT just going to willingly agree. He may completely ignore you. NO. Don't get undermined. Fighting excitable behavior tires him out and he's not going to sit there like a crazy man all day. He's going to give in. THEN, without talking alot or anything, just calmly walk away. You can reward that calm energy with a physical reward (pet) but be prepared for him to BOING right back LOL.
Make him sit there and settle DOWN. You need to follow through until he is in a calm state. Relaxed ears back not forward alert. HIS job is to NEVER bark at strangers and when you direct him to chill out he needs to chill out. IF you walk away from the target when he's in an excitable state, he learns nothing...the brain is not in a calm state and HE is not making the choice YOU are forcing the choice which won't work long term. He's never going to understand what you want. CALMNESS. He's going to think you and he RAN AWAY from the bad people!! But "Don't worry, mom, I'll get 'em next time!"
You want to PRE-EMPT this behavior before it escalates to an excessive degree (barking - mouthing off to humans) and that means a leash for now, IMO. When he gives the evil eye or tail UP or gets "ready to" express himself to strangers, STOP it before he does it. Even if you have to stand in front of him and block him from moving. NO tension on the leash when walking, he feels that and will be "on guard" - tense. Only tension to get his attention quickly. You don't even really have to use words. He reads your energy. Or just say "hey" or "no" or shhh" or something brief and not yelling or upset/angry. You have to leave no room for doubt that you are going to take over, now.
The mistake people make is they stop the "behavior" but don't STAY THERE and follow through until the dog calms down and lets go of the imaginary or excitable cause. This takes ALOT OF determination and leadership on your part and it starts at the front door at home. NO rushing the door barking, make an imaginary line a few feet away that he is NOT allowed to cross. Follow through every time when he breaks the rules and don't let him do a "drive by" rush, bark and flee. Make him sit there until he SETTLES DOWN. You can even put a broom handle across the threshold if YOU need a reminder of his boundaries. When people enter he is NOT allowed to rush them or insist on their attention. I'd have visitors completely ignore him and go sit down and see if he'll ignore them. OR sit in a calm way and sniff them gently not ON TOP OF THEM. I can't really explain all the body language here but this is a start.
If you have to bring a hundred strangers to the front door to practice YOUR skills, bring a hundred strangers! Make sure you greet them talking "HI HOW ARE YOU" which sometimes triggers excitement then correct him to go behind the broom. And when he goes behind the broom he has to SETTLE DOWN not be all excited or anxious to escape the broom area. Stand there until that happens. As long as it takes as many times as it takes. Then shake hands or hug the visitor. IT's important he not own you and be suspicious. DON'T DO THIS IF HIS IS A PROBLEM CASE OR DANGEROUS!! I can't emphasize this enough since nobody can see you or him or ANYTHING online.
I know it's embarrassing and scary to have your dog do that to strangers but if you CAN handle him, with calm assertive energy, NOT being upset, frustrated or excitable yourself, but IN CHARGE, it's an opportunity to convey his job (trusting YOU) and working with him. But ONLY if you can handle him. Otherwise get a professional to accompany you trying these methods if you can find one. He is not "right" until he stops charging humans and actually dogs, too. And when I say if you CAN handle him, I mean in the case where he's just a goofy powerful but not the least bit red zone case and not a PROTECTIVE case which really a professional should diagnose.
It concerns me you used the word protective. That is NOT allowed in MY book. And it's a red flag.
Also the park is not the area to burn off steam, that should happen before entering a park for everyone's benefit. But nobody does it which is why there is so much frustration at dog parks.
Last edited by runswithscissors; 07-02-2013 at 03:17 PM..
Outside behavior starts with "training" INSIDE the house. NO BARKING at noises. And by training I mean him understanding he is not responsible for everyone's life. LOL. Meaning YOU are. It's energy - not words or always tools if your energy isn't accompanying the tool. It's a shame this trainer went to the collar and not to the root cause of him respecting you as his leader. They're so cute and can get to be punks real FAST! I assume the trainer said he is dominant not fearful? It's a tricky thing to interpret. DON'T DO ANYTHING I'M ABOUT TO SAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE IF YOUR PUP IS THE LEAST BIT DANGEROUS OR UNRELIABLE. GET HELP. Also he may need more exercise like a good 45 minutes a couple times a day if you're not doing that. Boredom and excess energy invents imaginary problems.
Funny you said Sharpei. One of my most memorable clients in my former pet store had a young Sharpei that was so hilarious (to me not her).
He could out smart her every day by finding the collar and transmitter and running out the dog door to hide it. They'd have a RACE to the kitchen counter to grab it and he always beat her. He also used to race to attack the older mild Sharpei, and that was BAD. She couldn't stop that either.
He was a perfect angel with me and his trainer without it because he respected our requests. Try being more direct in what is acceptable and not acceptable and consistent. But I think you may have your hands full with this guy at a park. Or even at home?
I would NEVER use it in a park.
Well do you have trouble handling him? IF NOT, I'd suggest don't leave. And don't REDIRECT to other things. The direction is to: CALM DOWN AND STOP right there and then in that very spot. NO excitable behavior wanted. Chances are he is NOT just going to willingly agree. He may completely ignore you. NO. Don't get undermined. Fighting excitable behavior tires him out and he's not going to sit there like a crazy man all day. He's going to give in. THEN, without talking alot or anything, just calmly walk away. You can reward that calm energy with a physical reward (pet) but be prepared for him to BOING right back LOL.
Make him sit there and settle DOWN. You need to follow through until he is in a calm state. Relaxed ears back not forward alert. HIS job is to NEVER bark at strangers and when you direct him to chill out he needs to chill out. IF you walk away from the target when he's in an excitable state, he learns nothing...the brain is not in a calm state and HE is not making the choice YOU are forcing the choice which won't work long term. He's never going to understand what you want. CALMNESS. He's going to think you and he RAN AWAY from the bad people!! But "Don't worry, mom, I'll get 'em next time!"
You want to PRE-EMPT this behavior before it escalates to an excessive degree (barking - mouthing off to humans) and that means a leash for now, IMO. When he gives the evil eye or tail UP or gets "ready to" express himself to strangers, STOP it before he does it. Even if you have to stand in front of him and block him from moving. NO tension on the leash when walking, he feels that and will be "on guard" - tense. Only tension to get his attention quickly. You don't even really have to use words. He reads your energy. Or just say "hey" or "no" or shhh" or something brief and not yelling or upset/angry. You have to leave no room for doubt that you are going to take over, now.
The mistake people make is they stop the "behavior" but don't STAY THERE and follow through until the dog calms down and lets go of the imaginary or excitable cause. This takes ALOT OF determination and leadership on your part and it starts at the front door at home. NO rushing the door barking, make an imaginary line a few feet away that he is NOT allowed to cross. Follow through every time when he breaks the rules and don't let him do a "drive by" rush, bark and flee. Make him sit there until he SETTLES DOWN. You can even put a broom handle across the threshold if YOU need a reminder of his boundaries. When people enter he is NOT allowed to rush them or insist on their attention. I'd have visitors completely ignore him and go sit down and see if he'll ignore them. OR sit in a calm way and sniff them gently not ON TOP OF THEM. I can't really explain all the body language here but this is a start.
If you have to bring a hundred strangers to the front door to practice YOUR skills, bring a hundred strangers! Make sure you greet them talking "HI HOW ARE YOU" which sometimes triggers excitement then correct him to go behind the broom. And when he goes behind the broom he has to SETTLE DOWN not be all excited or anxious to escape the broom area. Stand there until that happens. As long as it takes as many times as it takes. Then shake hands or hug the visitor. IT's important he not own you and be suspicious. DON'T DO THIS IF HIS IS A PROBLEM CASE OR DANGEROUS!! I can't emphasize this enough since nobody can see you or him or ANYTHING online.
I know it's embarrassing and scary to have your dog do that to strangers but if you CAN handle him, with calm assertive energy, NOT being upset, frustrated or excitable yourself, but IN CHARGE, it's an opportunity to convey his job (trusting YOU) and working with him. But ONLY if you can handle him. Otherwise get a professional to accompany you trying these methods if you can find one. He is not "right" until he stops charging humans and actually dogs, too. And when I say if you CAN handle him, I mean in the case where he's just a goofy powerful but not the least bit red zone case and not a PROTECTIVE case which really a professional should diagnose.
It concerns me you used the word protective. That is NOT allowed in MY book. And it's a red flag.
Also the park is not the area to burn off steam, that should happen before entering a park for everyone's benefit. But nobody does it which is why there is so much frustration at dog parks.
When i first got him he was totally out of control at home and everywhere else. I've gotten to the point where I'm pretty good at controlling his behavior at home, typically calmly saying NO, gets him to stop whatever he's doing including barking or whatever else. Up until recently I could rarely get him to come inside without a fight when he went into the yard to use the bathroom and so on. After months and months of chasing him and screaming at him and so forth, I was able to very quickly train him to come indoors with a simple and calm "inside" command that works 90% of the time. When he doesn't comply I usually step towards him and he'll back off and then run inside. There are a couple "home" things that could definitely use some work
-Going bonkers when I have guests over-jumping all over them, trying to sit by them on the couch and so on for the first 10 minutes when the arrive
-Going bonkers jumping on me and whining when I get the leash out and ready for walks
-Going bonkers when he looks out the window and sees my neighbors in their yard (this one I can stop 60% of the time with a stern no.
Outdoors he tends to lose most of his obedience:
-Barking like a madman at dogs who get near us while he is leashed on a walk
-Occasionally bad behavior at dog parks i described above.
Believe it or not he is a million times better than he was when I first got him 11 months ago at 8 months old.
I can generally tell if he is getting ready to go nuts on a stranger at the dog park, he makes this funny expression and starts to kind of circle them while watching them in the corner of his eye. Then I try to approach him with the goal of removing him from the situation or at least controlling him, and he avoids me by dodging me and then usually starts his bark-athon. Last time it happened he only barked for a minute or so and eventually he listened to my NO and moved on. The previous time the guy who he did this to was totally calm and seemed to not be concerned by it and my dog gave up on his own. But usually people get really nervous and freaked out so it makes me nervous and i try to remove him and he dodges around me for awhile before I'm able to grab him and put a leash on.
It sounds like you've done a great job with him so far!! Oh yes, circling strangers (or anyone) is NOT GOOD haha. NO WAY, for real. Stepping back from you walking towards him is good. He's respecting you. (don't yell just walk and point maybe but no noise or anxiety or frustration on your part). When two dogs attack something or someone they circle in tandem. He's NOT allowed to approach humans on his own like that. IMO that could turn into a nip. It's happened to me in people's houses plenty of times and oddly, with larger dogs. A sly nip on the hip or thigh in PASSING then running around in front of me. Sly. I decline those jobs because I am not a dog trainer.
He might not be quite ready for off leash dog park right now till you can get him to a calmer level before the park but it can happen! It's kinda not a matter of obedience but the ability to train his brain to know how to not escalate to that annoying high level right now because he's not even HEARING your "obedience" or being "obedient even in the house at the window! ALSO they can get worse as they get older so it's good to address it now. You need to make sure he knows you do not ACCEPT this.
He's really not losing obedience mostly outside with that cray behavior inside.
I'd probably try and do more exercise in the morning...to tire him out even a treadmill (LOL) and when he listens to your "no" don't let him move on to circumvent you. Like with guests. He's not allowed to jump OFF the sofa when you say no, go around the room then jump back ON. Also don't let them look at him, talk to him or touch him. IGNORE.
He has to sit and calm down before meeting them which in the beginning means a SNIFF not jumping on their lap! haha, though. Or when you interrupt his play same thing. Same thing with going outside. No crazy stuff he has to sit still and calm THEN he gets the leash on even if it takes 15 minutes. Of course sometimes I think it's not quite fair to expect a high energy dog to be able to control that without some exercise and good long walks to get that out, though.
Most people, like I said, make the mistake of just stopping the behavior or letting the dog run away from the behavior. So I'd try and make his brain settle down and comprehend that calm is what you want, not just stopping the thing he's doing at the moment. Screaming makes him more excited just be "definite" and follow through. He isn't allowed to "win". Being calm means you get to go outside. You don't want to make strangers in parks your guinea pigs but IF he approaches a human I'd make him sit there first then when he's calm, leave very matter of factly. Maybe use someone you KNOW not a stranger. Kind of like you are claiming everything (even people) he doesn't own everything sorta deal.
You can do it! I'm relieved he's like you said! It sounds like he's an exuberant [dominant] playful boy and flexing his muscles but it has to stop before he makes up other nonsense to get MORE assertive and even suspicious. Dominant is simply the skill of controlling your own surroundings and people etc. He's a powerful breed, you want to get this nipped in the bud now - interrupt him BEFORE he gets to the excited anxiety stage
Hilarious and perfect video of a Sharpei and how she got calmly "fixed" (depending on the handler) right away - your guy could maybe be this easy if you master the technique - YOU can be a Sharpei - as "simple" as rules, boundaries and limitations LOL:
You can right click your mouse on the video link and copy paste to your browser to see all the parts 1,2,3 on this channel on Youtube if you want.
Fun dog park etiquette video and body language how to act FAST and people, NO, DON"T TRY ALL OF THIS it's just for example showing how it CAN be done by a professional (part 1, there are 4 parts - the next part is really funny with a little punky Pomeranian):
By the way my trainer disagnosed him as low threshold-reactive (I believe was the terminology he used.)
In my opinion he really seems afraid of certain things and people he doesn't know and the way he deals with it is by barking at them and kind of seeming aggressive but the minute they lean in or try to get close to him he quickly backs off. In fact he frequently approaches strangers at dog parks to sniff them, but the moment they reach down to pet him he is very shy and unsure of it and will back off. He also tends to walk around the dog park with his tail completely curled in towards his back like a scorpion. Not sure what that body language is. Also big smile on his face (nervous?) and frothy mouth.
He sometimes relaxes but it usually takes time. One thing the dog park has seemed to help him with is being a little less fearful with other dogs and it helps the energy level, and when he relaxes he really seems to enjoy himself chasing and being chased by other dogs. We have another dog, a 7 month old swiss mountain mix who is probably 20 pounds less than him, and the sharpei is definitely the boss. When I have friends/family over and he acts foolish and hyper I try to tell them to ignore him but they just don't seem to listen. Humans are harder to train than dogs, I am convinced.
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He barks when he hears basically anything...
NO BARKING at noises. And by training I mean him understanding he is not responsible for everyone's life. LOL. Meaning YOU are. It's energy - not words or always tools if your energy isn't accompanying the tool. It's a shame this trainer went to the collar and not to the root cause of him respecting you as his leader. They're so cute and can get to be punks real FAST! I assume the trainer said he is dominant not fearful? It's a tricky thing to interpret. DON'T DO ANYTHING I'M ABOUT TO SAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE IF YOUR PUP IS THE LEAST BIT DANGEROUS OR UNRELIABLE. GET HELP.
Also he may need more exercise like a good 45 minutes a couple times a day if you're not doing that. Boredom and excess energy invents imaginary problems. 
NO WAY, for real. Stepping back from you walking towards him is good. He's respecting you. (don't yell just walk and point maybe but no noise or anxiety or frustration on your part). When two dogs attack something or someone they circle in tandem. He's NOT allowed to approach humans on his own like that. IMO that could turn into a nip. It's happened to me in people's houses plenty of times and oddly, with larger dogs. A sly nip on the hip or thigh in PASSING then running around in front of me. Sly. I decline those jobs because I am not a dog trainer. 
