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Old 10-14-2013, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Rothschild, WI
4,972 posts, read 11,283,863 times
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Both of my dogs, Moose and Ruby, are rescues. Moose was 6 months old when we adopted him, and Ruby was 3 years old. Both of them have a lot of anxiety when it comes to car rides. I tried crating them in the car. Moose refuses to get in the crate, and it didn't help Ruby at all. I would love to take them places with me more often, but it causes them so much stress that I don't take them with me much anymore.

Yesterday I took Ruby with me to go for a hike. It was a 10 minute drive to get to the trail. As soon as she got in the car, she started shaking like a leaf and crying. And as soon as we got to the trail and she got out of the car, she was perfectly fine. Does anyone know what I can do to help them overcome this fear? Thanks!
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Old 10-14-2013, 07:49 AM
 
Location: West Virginia
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What are you doing when she like that? With dogs you Need to be careful. Best to Ignore them & turn the radio on low to soft music. To tell them its ok is giving them Permission to be scared.
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Old 10-14-2013, 08:30 AM
 
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why not start with high value food treats and just sit in the car for 10 to 20 mins. turn the radio on and just sit there. treat them when they are calm. later turn the car on and just let it idle. then later still just go around the block. you would hope sooner or later they will relax. if they are rescues they probably have never been in a car. not sure it will help but maybe worth a try
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Old 10-14-2013, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Rothschild, WI
4,972 posts, read 11,283,863 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie1 View Post
What are you doing when she like that? With dogs you Need to be careful. Best to Ignore them & turn the radio on low to soft music. To tell them its ok is giving them Permission to be scared.
Thanks for the reply! Yes, that's what I do. I turn the radio on low and I ignore the behavior. I do pet her to try to reassure her here and there. (When she's sitting next to me. I've tried putting her in the back seat and she's even more distraught back there.)
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Old 10-14-2013, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Rothschild, WI
4,972 posts, read 11,283,863 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui View Post
why not start with high value food treats and just sit in the car for 10 to 20 mins. turn the radio on and just sit there. treat them when they are calm. later turn the car on and just let it idle. then later still just go around the block. you would hope sooner or later they will relax. if they are rescues they probably have never been in a car. not sure it will help but maybe worth a try
Thanks! I will definitely try that. Poor babies! I hate to see them so stressed. At the very least I need to be able to get them to their vet visits without them freaking out.
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:58 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
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Are you sure your reading Fear/Stress & Not Over Excite ment? Going hiking would set my dogs off! I seen hunting dogs go Wild!
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Old 10-14-2013, 05:44 PM
 
10,599 posts, read 16,755,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovemaine View Post
Thanks for the reply! Yes, that's what I do. I turn the radio on low and I ignore the behavior. I do pet her to try to reassure her here and there. (When she's sitting next to me. I've tried putting her in the back seat and she's even more distraught back there.)
You're reassuring her unstable mind that it's correct to be worried. IGNORE. Use calm assertive leadership. Don't act "sympathetic" that is weak energy and dogs don't trust weak energy.

Do the exercise as many times as possible and they'll both get desensitized to the whole thing. After you complacently get in and out of the car 200 times to listen to the radio and then drive them around ending up in a good place about 150 times they are NOT going to do that stuff LOL.

Like was mentioned ^^ I would NOT reward the shaking insecurity with food but I would use it to break their train of thought and pass it past their nose maybe. Well actually, no I rarely use food for stuff but hypothetically you could. You want to engage the nose. AND a stressed dog won't eat so if it works you can measure their level of anxiety that way.

They're NOT terrified. They would never bounce out if they were all that traumatized. You can see since she was perfectly fine after getting out that it's really not that big of a thing deep down. So VISUALIZE what you want, and remember they will mirror YOU so stay calm, confident and also do not be afraid to disagree with some of this. "Hey, shhhh" never hurt and only helps.

Only reward the behaviors you want to encourage do not give affection to an unstable mind. Just pretend you don't see it or correct it very matter of factly. But with leadership. NOT frustration. And I say pretend you don't see it but that doesn't apply to acting out like jumping all over the place, panting, whining, licking, circling. I totally correct that? "HEY". And it stops.

And Moose HAS TO get in the crate. PERIOD. Get him in there in a CALM and directive way but don't PUSH him in, you want to have him at least participate 50% by walking forward to it then you can touch.

Try putting your hand gently but firmly under his butt and he may just walk IN. OR on the stomach. Or by leash. Or like a wheelbarrow LOL Maybe practice the crate in the house, driveway, garage THEN move the exercise to the car once he'll go in out of the car.

Last edited by runswithscissors; 10-14-2013 at 06:01 PM..
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Old 10-14-2013, 06:33 PM
 
1,697 posts, read 4,146,311 times
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First I want to direct you to some information about the myth that it is possible to reinforce fear in dogs by comforting or reassuring them when they are frightened. Please have a look at this material:

Myth of reinforcing fear | Fearful Dogs

You Can’t Reinforce Fear » TheOtherEndoftheLeash


You can't reinforce fear- dog training - YouTube

Now here is a guide for getting your dogs adjusted to car rides:

1) First you'll work with your dogs in the vehicle without even starting the engine. Sit with them in the vehicle and just hang out, act normal, tell them what good dogs they are, give each a treat or two or three, give them something to chew on, just generally make it a pleasant, relaxing experience and keep your energy really low key & casual.

2) Repeat the above type of experience with the vehicle running but stationary. So all we are adding here is the sound and feel of the engine. In all of these steps you can also play the radio in the car.

3) Once the dogs start to completely associate the car with relaxation, we'll bring movement into the picture. First just pull the car down and up the driveway. After you see they're doing well with that, go for a slow drive around the block. If you're seeing much anxiety at this stage, that indicates we are progressing too rapidly and need to take a step back in the process.

4) On these rides around the block, you might want to give your dogs special new toys that you know they'll love, or Kongs stuffed with frozen peanut butter, or some kind of little chew bone or a bully stick. Pick something they'll find irresistible that you feel is safe for the car. Let them have it only in the car during the rides. Take it away when each car ride is over. If they are not interested in what you're giving them, it's not good enough so find something better! You might even have to give them something different each ride but the only time they get these special items is in the car.

5) Pick several nearby destinations that your dogs will love and take them to those places. These should be short trips! Maybe they like going to a special friend's house to play, or to the ice cream stand that sells doggie cones, or the pet store, or the dog park, or training class, or a hiking trail, or going to visit a particular person - make a point of going to these places regularly.

6) Take them on a longer drive, on the highway during a time of day when there is not much traffic. So far we have been working in short time intervals, now we want to increase their tolerance for length of time in the car, but we want to do that on the highway because it will be a smoother ride (no stop & go, turns, etc.)
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:05 PM
ZSP
 
Location: Paradise
1,720 posts, read 4,838,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k9coach View Post
First I want to direct you to some information about the myth that it is possible to reinforce fear in dogs by comforting or reassuring them when they are frightened. Please have a look at this material:

Myth of reinforcing fear | Fearful Dogs

You Can’t Reinforce Fear » TheOtherEndoftheLeash


You can't reinforce fear- dog training - YouTube

Now here is a guide for getting your dogs adjusted to car rides:

1) First you'll work with your dogs in the vehicle without even starting the engine. Sit with them in the vehicle and just hang out, act normal, tell them what good dogs they are, give each a treat or two or three, give them something to chew on, just generally make it a pleasant, relaxing experience and keep your energy really low key & casual.

2) Repeat the above type of experience with the vehicle running but stationary. So all we are adding here is the sound and feel of the engine. In all of these steps you can also play the radio in the car.

3) Once the dogs start to completely associate the car with relaxation, we'll bring movement into the picture. First just pull the car down and up the driveway. After you see they're doing well with that, go for a slow drive around the block. If you're seeing much anxiety at this stage, that indicates we are progressing too rapidly and need to take a step back in the process.

4) On these rides around the block, you might want to give your dogs special new toys that you know they'll love, or Kongs stuffed with frozen peanut butter, or some kind of little chew bone or a bully stick. Pick something they'll find irresistible that you feel is safe for the car. Let them have it only in the car during the rides. Take it away when each car ride is over. If they are not interested in what you're giving them, it's not good enough so find something better! You might even have to give them something different each ride but the only time they get these special items is in the car.

5) Pick several nearby destinations that your dogs will love and take them to those places. These should be short trips! Maybe they like going to a special friend's house to play, or to the ice cream stand that sells doggie cones, or the pet store, or the dog park, or training class, or a hiking trail, or going to visit a particular person - make a point of going to these places regularly.

6) Take them on a longer drive, on the highway during a time of day when there is not much traffic. So far we have been working in short time intervals, now we want to increase their tolerance for length of time in the car, but we want to do that on the highway because it will be a smoother ride (no stop & go, turns, etc.)
Excellent post...excellent advice. Patricia Mc Connell's training methods are proven and are humane.

To the OP, best of luck...your patience and dedication will and can bring your dogs around. Hang in there.
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:53 AM
 
10,599 posts, read 16,755,369 times
Reputation: 17329
Let me get this straight. "Positive reinforcement is the way to go". But there is no such thing as negative reinforcement. Oh wait. That can't be the theory because so many people insist Cesar Millan's methods are negative.

First of all, all a person has to do to understand DOGS is to watch DOGS in a natural environment without human neurosis. Mother nature does not nurture insecurity.

I actually don't have to quote "experts" since I have my own basis for my beliefs. UNIVERSALLY of the hundreds of clients I've had, and the thousands of dog walks I've done, all the dogs who whine neurotically have owners who nurture that. The dogs NEVER EVER do it with me. Even if I just sit in another part of the room, let alone remove the owner. Moreover, if the dog is NOT doing it with me, I can EASILY make them whine by whining MYSELF and petting them as I do it.

Try it some time. Dogs do NOT follow and trust weak energy.

LOL though. I love when people seem to think they're disagreeing with someone, then post the same advise as the person they're disagreeing with. This is especially prevalent with anything that Cesar Millan has ever uttered, people love to find ways to disagree with it then paraphrase it.
1. Practice sitting in the car doing nothing (Ohhhhh, IGNORE?)
2. "keep your energy really low key & casual." (Ohhhh, don't reinforce the fear?)
3. Drive around doing nothing (Yup, ditto)
4. Go someplace they like (Amazing! Just like I said)
None of that is contrary to what I said, it's just using more words. But yeah, you left out the leadership part - the MOST important element in any dog/human relationship.

NOW, the video: As far as ascribing human comparisons to a different species, why can the video only compare consoling an upset human with a dog? Dogs don't rationalize like humans and humans don't live in packs and follow a pack leader for their everyday necessities.
Do humans growl and snarl over their food bowl for imaginary reasons? Rarely.
Do adult humans need leashes to prevent them from running out in the street getting HBC?
Do humans chew bones to rid themselves of anxiety? HA maybe they should try that.
Do dogs do talk therapy spending thousands of dollars to become balanced?
"no amount of food or petting is going to combat that huge adversive quality [fear]".

OH, so you agree. Petting and food are not productive rehabilitating fear, you just don't think they're counter productive? I do. FOOD is a reward to a dog. Heck, half the time it's a reward to children and adults. You never heard of emotional eating?

Call me crazy. Petting a dog while being neurotic isn't agreeing with them? HAHA ok. Is THAT why tension on the leash causes tension in the dog? You can't have it both ways. Who knows? Maybe you don't even think it's important to walk with a loose lead.

"Fear is an emotion and you technically can not reinforce an emotion".

WHAT? Who says? Of course you can reinforce emotions, even in humans. One may make a case that enforced or unenforced fears are a basis for plenty of dynamics in society. Regardless, fear is a STIMULUS, a chain reaction in the brain. Release of chemicals with flight or fight response critical to every animal's survival.

You never saw those experiments where you get an electric shock for doing the wrong thing or giving the wrong answer? I guess you never saw Ghostbusters LOL.
Why do so many women for example, NEED their significant other to reinforce their "love" with verbal statements or actions? "Oh I KNOW he loves me but he never shows/says it".
You don't think people are fearful of being broke or starving or getting evicted so they work for money?
People rush to the grocery store at the first sign of snow or hurricanes from fear of [whatever].
Why do you think politicians always say Social Security is at risk whenever they want to demonize their opponents?
Why does fear of failure and detention (consequences) or repeating the school year work with students?
Why does the military use dogs to find land mines and against IEDs? Because the humans are FEARFUL of those techniques that have been reinforced by terrorists.
The military teaches members skills to fight fear, they don't reinforce it with pity and "sympathy".
You never head of Stockholm Syndrome? Reinforcing that the victim cannot live without the captor?
Why do women stay with abusive husbands?
Kids who have parent afraid of animals are afraid of animals themselves.
Kids who overreact to scraping a knee when they fall off a bike can be "reinforced" to be afraid of a bike if you don't show them how to face their fears.
But hey, if you want to say dogs are the same as humans, fine. You've heard of Skinner and Pavlov?

Phobias can be acquired through operant conditioning by reinforcement. Phobias can be learned through operant conditioning by repeatedly reinforcing avoidance of a mildly fearful situation. For example, if a person has a mild fear of flying and his/her spouse agrees to drive instead of fly, the person's fear of flying has been reinforced and may develop into a phobia.

New Page 1

Venkman's ESP Test:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ohlA__xABw

Last edited by runswithscissors; 10-15-2013 at 01:13 AM..
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