U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Pets > Dogs
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-26-2014, 10:50 AM
 
24,841 posts, read 36,053,414 times
Reputation: 11523

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sfemi View Post
Sadly no, but adding another tool to the arsenal of the ignorant or evil doesn't do any dog a favor!
I prefer to keep my hounds alive.

If the dog is disruptive to the group......it has no future.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-27-2014, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Lakeside. Of course.
537 posts, read 1,715,653 times
Reputation: 1299
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9coach View Post
I am not referring to electric fence collars or bark collars. I am interested in responses from owners who use e-collars that come with a handheld remote.

Please describe how you use this tool in your training. Do you 'zap' the dog as punishment for disobedience? Do you apply a low level continuous zap to put pressure on the dog and then remove the pressure once the dog complies? How did you determine which level of shock to use?

It's a long read if you start from the beginning, but I documented our training progress:
If only I could keep a Journal...: Spur: Training the Beast, the prequel

It's certainly a PROCESS.
We ARE working with a trainer. We are NOT doing this on our own. For this reason, I'll continue my experience in a PM.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2014, 02:56 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
1,843 posts, read 2,917,020 times
Reputation: 2737
Ours had a button for just a beep, then a separate button for the shock. You beep first, then shock. The dog learns quick, so if the dog does not obey, you just hit the beep button & don't need to shock. We only used the actualy shock button once or twice.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2014, 03:18 PM
 
621 posts, read 1,356,375 times
Reputation: 1246
what you are asking about is teaching a dog how to turn off the stimulation. Unfortunately to try to explain it here would only ignite the masses that believe making an animal do anything is cruel and horrible.

Look up TriTronics... they used to have some excellent videos on using the collars for different training.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2014, 03:44 PM
 
1,696 posts, read 4,184,156 times
Reputation: 3924
It looks like most owners use the shock to punish / discourage unwanted behavior. There is a small group of professional trainers claiming to use these devices on a very low setting (like 3 out of 100) to get the desired behavior. These trainers make a point of stating that they never use shock to punish unwanted behavior. They will apply the stimulation when the dog is not doing anything wrong but is just not doing the goal behavior. The only way the dog can stop the low level continuous shock is to offer the desired behavior. Again, we see this basic technique all the time in horse training and riding. Light aids with our hands and legs apply mildly annoying pressure and the horse can make that pressure stop by offering the desired behavior, i.e. go the correct speed, turn, whoa, etc. The new school shock-collar dog trainers are using this principal with dog training, but instead of creating pressure through leash work, physical touch, or body language, they are using low level electric stimulation that they say a human can barely perceive.

While I have never used an e-collar personally, I get to meet plenty of dogs who have experienced them. The main observation I have is that dogs who are shocked at higher levels become reactive and even aggressive toward other dogs. And in every case to which I'm referring, these were dogs with no serious dog-aggression issues prior to e-collar training. This observation continues to bear out as I meet or read about additional cases. On the other hand I have not found increased dog-aggression in dogs that were only shocked a few times to establish the rules in the beginning of training and dogs that are only ever shocked at very low levels.

I think it's important to understand the ways owners and trainers use e-collars in order to determine if there are or are not humane and effective ways to utilize these devices. If there is a humane way to use a remote e-collar, we need to educate the public on that method at least as a last resort for persistent training problems. If there is no humane way to use these devices, then we need to work toward a ban as the U.K. is doing.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2014, 04:02 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
13,759 posts, read 37,444,487 times
Reputation: 9960
People are cruel for sure & so can these collars be! I saw this guy put one on his beagle. Every time the beagle Howled he turn it up high stand there hold it down til the dog was screaming on the ground! & he still keep it on. Told me was the only way to teach him from baying! Only wanted him Baying when hunting! BTW he was standing at the closed window when he did it!
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2014, 04:09 PM
 
1,696 posts, read 4,184,156 times
Reputation: 3924
The Pet Professional Guild recently listed some of the more common problems associated with the use of shock collars. These are the ones that I'm most interested in studying:

• Escalation

If results are not immediately realized, many users of electrical stimulation devices will increase the level of stimulation, which often results in the animal attempting to escape or avoid the stimulus and even total shut down where it will refuse to perform. This creates a counter-productive paradigm in which little learning can occur. Additionally, some animals are ”stoic” and may fail to show a pain response despite increased levels of electrical stimulation. Other animals may become habituated to the pain and endure it, causing trainers to increase the level and frequency of electrical stimulation. The pain and stress caused in such situations has a significant effect on an animal’s physiology, increasing cortisol levels and heart rate.

• Global Suppression, or “Shut-Down”

An animal repeatedly subjected to electrical stimulation for several different behaviors may go into a state of “shut down,” or a global suppression of behavior. This is frequently mistaken for a “trained” animal, as the animal remains subdued and offers few or no behaviors. In extreme cases, animals may refuse to perform any behavior, called “learned helplessness” and isolate themselves to avoid incurring electrical stimulation. This is counter-productive to training new behaviors.

• Suppressed Aggression

The use of aversive stimuli is counter-indicated in animals with aggression because they suppress aggression and it may resurface at any time, without warning, generally in a more severe display (Hiby et al., 2004). Using electrical stimulation to reduce behaviors such as barking, lunging and growling may suppress behaviors that warn of a more serious imminent behavior such as biting. Without ritualized aggression behaviors, people and other animals will have no warning before the animal subjected to punishment feels forced to bite.

• Redirected Aggression

Animals subjected to repeated electrical stimulation may be respondently conditioned to associate the fear/pain of electrical stimulation with certain contextual cues in their environment.... Similarly, animals subjected to repeated electrical stimulation may act aggressively toward the nearest human or animal in attempt to escape/avoid pain/fear caused by electrical stimulation.



The full list can be found in one of the facebook posts here: https://www.facebook.com/PetProfessionalGuild

I would be interested to know whether the Pet Professional Guild takes methodology into account when listing potential fallout or if they believe any use of electrical stimulation has the potential to cause these problems.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2014, 05:19 PM
 
24,841 posts, read 36,053,414 times
Reputation: 11523
The e-collars are just a form of communication between the dog and the handler.

Look though this link and see how expensive the collars are.

Collar Clinic: Electronic Dog Training Collars for Hunting, Working and Companion Dogs, GPS Dog Tracking, E-Collar Parts

Last edited by Driller1; 02-08-2014 at 06:07 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2014, 10:21 PM
 
621 posts, read 1,356,375 times
Reputation: 1246
I don't know that there is any way to teach the proper use of the collar in a forum like this, or by reading a book. Of course reading about how to use, and how not to use a collar is important... but it's only the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

Every dog is different, every single situation where a collar could and or should not be used is different.

We use collars training bird dogs, but one has to know the dog very well before ever using it. We have to know how that particular dog might react, know what to do when the dog does react, how to back off and or or get harder on the dog.

There are no hard and fast rules, it's so much a feeling, an intuition. Most times we will err on the side of not using the collar when the dog makes a mistake. They all make mistakes and if you corrected them with the collar every single time... the dog would simply quit you.

In your first question you asked how much stimulation was used... we want the dog to know "something" touched them, not hurt them. We want them to understand we have very very very long arms.... and we can always be right there, even when they are very very very far away from us. It's effective if used properly.

We never want to hurt the dog, or scare him. That would be counter productive to what we are trying to produce. Our dogs need to be extremely confident, driving and independent... working on an visible string if you can envision that. And our dog need to like us, want to go with us.

We never, or hardly ever use it to correct aggression... doing that unless your timing is absolutely perfect can indeed make it worse. There is a very fine line there and if you make a mistake....

Now, there are uses for the collar to save their lives! Chasing deer can get a dog killed... trash breaking can be a not fun thing to do...in those cases sometimes the dog has to feel discomfort to make them quit, pure and simple.

I would strongly suggest if you really want to learn about the pro's and con's of collar use.. find a successful sporting dog trainer and spend some time with them watching them train.

Used properly and with knowledge a collar is just another tool. Those who are so dead set against them have never seen them used correctly.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2014, 10:43 PM
 
482 posts, read 834,085 times
Reputation: 391
We have had to use them to teach our dogs not to chase livestock. We actually had to sell our goats that we used for fresh milk because we have one female in particular that got the goats twice, and I could not allow them to suffer like that.

But we also have horses. Horses will take a little before kicking. Once the horse starts running however, NOTHING can get the prey drive out of the dog and that is where it becomes dangerous. It escalates into horses running for their lives through fences, into the road, onto others property, into traffic, etc. It also means the dog(s) are in critical danger because the horse not only kick but they stomp with their front hooves. That is a no win situation that a dog can never recover from. It will result in broken ribs and punctured lungs at the very least. Mainly it ends in a lot of suffering for the dog.

Like I said, we do use them to train them to stop chasing livestock when prey drive kicks in. Anyone who has ever had a dog with strong prey drive must know they get tunnel vision and everything else ceases to exist.

It is unsafe on a myriad of levels and the E collar will stop it very quickly. After only a few times the issue stops and there are no further issues. It really is the most humane thing to do, for all dogs, livestock, and people involved.

PS- We use the Dogtra Waterproof ones that are $350-$400 each
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Pets > Dogs
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:31 AM.

© 2005-2023, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top