Some way to test how protective our dog is? (shepherd, lab, bulldog)

[kletter1mann]

Our dog is extremely affectionate and sweet tempered. However, like most dogs, ours barks when the doorbell rings or he sees a stranger outside the door. His fur goes up, he barks and growls a little, but the instant that the person is welcomed inside and he can smell them, he turns back into a moosh - barking stops, tail wags and he immediately becomes your best pal.

This change of behavior is presumably because he senses our lack of fear or apprehension with the visitor. But we're curious about what he'd do if there really were some kind of threat, such as a break in when nobody's home, or an actual attack against my wife or myself. There doesn't seem to be any good way to test his behavior other than getting some stranger to walk in the house in a menacing way. But that has obvious drawbacks if the dog were to really go after the person. Ideas or thoughts?

I guess I should mention that the dog is a 100 lb German Shepherd. He's 10 years old and we've never seen him act aggressively towards anybody in our presence, not ever.

[JrzDefector]

Don't count on a dog for anything more than giving you an alert. Invest in good locks and maybe an alarm.

My younger dog would likely attack someone who came in without me being present. My previous dog proved he would attack any "unauthorized" person entering his territory if his person wasn't around. My current dog "sounds like 3 dogs" according to one of my workers. Someone would have to be crazy to break in - 3 of the 4 dogs in my house act like lunatics at the first sign of someone entering the house.

But just having a dog of size like a GSD means someone will think twice about breaking in. Someone who would break into a house with one is best deterred by something else other than the dog.

[kletter1mann]

Originally Posted by JrzDefector

Don't count on a dog for anything more than giving you an alert. Invest in good locks and maybe an alarm.

My younger dog would likely attack someone who came in without me being present. My previous dog proved he would attack any "unauthorized" person entering his territory if his person wasn't around. My current dog "sounds like 3 dogs" according to one of my workers. Someone would have to be crazy to break in - 3 of the 4 dogs in my house act like lunatics at the first sign of someone entering the house.

But just having a dog of size like a GSD means someone will think twice about breaking in. Someone who would break into a house with one is best deterred by something else other than the dog.

That's certainly true. When he's in bark-mode he looks extremely intimidating. I don't see anybody except a PCP crazed crack head ignoring him. Which is why we never lock the house unless we go out of town (though we live in a pretty rural area that's virtually crime-free).

[subject2change]

I'm guessing after 10 years this is just idle curiosity!
Your dog is acting exactly as he is supposed to do. My guess is that without you there to show him that it's OK for the person to be in the house, he would stay in guard mode. That said, I would lock the door when going out somewhere. Stuff happens on rare occasion no matter how safe an area it is. A person who DID come into a home with a barking GSD for some ungodly reason would probably be armed, and what can the dog do about that? It probably wouldn't happen in a million years, but locking the door isn't really a big deal. It's just nice to say you don't have to, but what other reason is there to not lock it? That's my thought, but locking the door is my lifelong habit. Not going to change it now no matter where I live.

[kletter1mann]

Originally Posted by subject2change

1. I'm guessing after 10 years this is just idle curiosity!
Your dog is acting exactly as he is supposed to do. My guess is that without you there to show him that it's OK for the person to be in the house, he would stay in guard mode. That said, I would lock the door when going out somewhere. Stuff happens on rare occasion no matter how safe an area it is. A person who DID come into a home with a barking GSD for some ungodly reason would probably be armed, and what can the dog do about that? It probably wouldn't happen in a million years, but 2. locking the door isn't really a big deal. It's just nice to say you don't have to, but what other reason is there to not lock it? That's my thought, but locking the door is my lifelong habit. Not going to change it now no matter where I live.

1. Yeah, that's true. the question arose because we've had a lot of contractors in in-and-out for the last 6 months or so. That gave us more opportunity than usual to see him in action.

2. Yeah, also true. It's [pure laziness] + [living in a semi-rural with virtually zero-crime] + [huge GSD]

The dog really is funny though. He transforms from a ferocious looking beast that would tear you to shreds to rolling on his back to get scratched. And in the span of about 5 seconds.

[Katie1]

Yes there is! Its Called Temperment Testing! Contact a local dog club see IF & When they plan a testing day!

[runswithscissors]

It may not ever be an issue but since it's a academic discussion here's my two cents.

Now that you've had your fun for ten years, I'd be taking this responsibility off the dog since he's in his senior years.

In my view that is insecurity. Territorial. Show. Bluster. It's too much. A really secure dog doesn't really do all that hair raising and has a deep strong bark and serious focus. They also won't take charge of a front door and PREEMPT THE pack leader (you). They should be TRAINED to do that if they are TRAINED protection dogs IF that's what the job is.

Of course we can't SEE him through your words but that's how it SOUNDS to me. We also can't see other clues like if he's placing himself in between you and the visitor. Or circling. Is the tail high (excitement) tucked or low (insecure) or straight back (unlikely with raised hair). Tail wagging is not "friendly" or "happy" it's excitement and/or anxiety.

I'm a dog walker and can guarantee you all the hair raisers like that are insecure and in homes with a softer energy.

I'm quite sure that your dog is NOT a leader and while he may BITE (out of insecurity but I doubt it) he might also bite inappropriately in the future since insecurity usually PROGRESSES, it doesn't diminish. Let's say for example you have a guest and "after he turns into a Moosh" he's napping and the stranger gets up from the chair and walks close or even pets him with no warning. SNAP.

You've been a buffer. If he is barking CHARGING the human he's not kidding. if he can push the stranger BACK with HIS energy he wins.

If he's barking all wiggly and going backwards as the stranger enters and walks forward he's REALLY faking. That's the best I can describe it. BOTH scenarios can result in a bite for different reasons.

I personally wouldn't let ANY dog be reactive that way or charge the door. It's MY DOOR and MY FOYER.

I would not be driving through the bank drive through and letting the window clerk "reach in to pet the dog" OR HUMAN...that's for sure. It's a quick way to "TEST" him.

Let's give the old man a nice senior experience and let him know YOU'RE taking over door duty and window watching and air sniffing and he doesn't need to worry about it. It may work for you now and in your current lifestyle but you never know what tomorrow brings.

Here's a more in depth synopsis from Leerburg Kennels. I can take or leave the "obedience training' part because I happen to believe more in the pack leader learning what calm assertive energy means which transfers to the dog but some people require obedience training to actually understand how that feels and what it means. But it doesn't mean rattling off a bunch of "commands" it means OWNING everything including and especially the front door. And owning the decisions of controlling the environment also called dominance.

Your dog is immediately rolling over on his back. He is submissive. He's showing respect to the visitors. They all have their characteristics and a pack needs a mix as there are "jobs" for each one. You never have an Iditarod sled team without strong MIDDLE pack members AND followers.

I'm saying all this since even if it's not that serious in your case 'cause lots of people hit on CD with dog comparisons in various degrees, too.

1. If they were not socialized as a young dog, this results in a temperament problem, which effect their nerves. A dog with weak nerves is a dog that is quick to show aggression to strangers. The dog's display of aggression is often just an act to cover up weakness in the dog. They learn that by acting aggressive people that make them nervous leave them alone. So while the inexperienced owner thinks he has a tiger by the tail, in reality the dog is weak. Usually dogs that act like this will get their hair up on their back and show a lot of teeth. They tend to growl a lot and will carry their tail in a tucked fashion (hard to tell on a rot). The bark on these dogs is more of a hectic neurotic bark.

2. Some dogs that do not have the above problems are aggressive because they are very territorial to their property and handler. These dogs will carry their tail high and when they bark at people they don't get their hair up so much. The bark on these dogs is a deeper more confident bark.

The solution to this issue always begins at home. It starts with establishing the owner as a stronger pack leader. This is done through formal obedience training. The work that goes into obedience training forces the dog to look at the owner as a stronger pack leader. No matter what, we need to realize that the domesticated dog is a pack animal with instincts. They do not think logically the way people do, they just react to their environment according to the instincts that their genetic background have provided them with. So if you put yourself in a position of controlling the dog through obedience exercises it is going to look at you as a better and stronger pack leader. The pack leader is the one who decides when and where to fight.

Leerburg | Q&A on Training Police Service Dogs

[CSD610]

Our Walter is an older boy and we have had him for about 10 years now and he never barks just to bark.
When he barks there is some sort of issue that has him worked up and he will not calm down until one of us gets up and takes him outside so he can see what is going on.

I am his human first so any protection that goes on would be to me first then Mr. CSD, thankfully we have not had to find out just how protective he is.

[kletter1mann]

Originally Posted by runswithscissors

It may not ever be an issue but since it's a academic discussion here's my two cents.

Now that you've had your fun for ten years, I'd be taking this responsibility off the dog since he's in his senior years.

In my view that is insecurity. Territorial. Show. Bluster. It's too much. A really secure dog doesn't really do all that hair raising 1 and has a deep strong bark and serious focus. They also won't take charge of a front door and PREEMPT THE pack leader (you). They should be TRAINED to do that if they are TRAINED protection dogs IF that's what the job is.

Of course we can't SEE him through your words but that's how it SOUNDS to me. 2. We also can't see other clues like if he's placing himself in between you and the visitor. Or circling. 3. Is the tail high (excitement) tucked or low (insecure) or straight back (unlikely with raised hair). Tail wagging is not "friendly" or "happy" it's excitement and/or anxiety.

I'm a dog walker and can guarantee you all the hair raisers like that are insecure and in homes with a softer energy.

I'm quite sure that your dog is NOT a leader and while he may BITE (out of insecurity but I doubt it) he might also bite inappropriately in the future since insecurity usually PROGRESSES, it doesn't diminish. 4. Let's say for example you have a guest and "after he turns into a Moosh" he's napping and the stranger gets up from the chair and walks close or even pets him with no warning. SNAP.

You've been a buffer. 5. If he is barking CHARGING the human he's not kidding. if he can push the stranger BACK with HIS energy he wins.

6. If he's barking all wiggly and going backwards as the stranger enters and walks forward he's REALLY faking. That's the best I can describe it. BOTH scenarios can result in a bite for different reasons.

I personally wouldn't let ANY dog be reactive that way or charge the door. It's MY DOOR and MY FOYER.

I would not be driving through the bank drive through and letting the window clerk "reach in to pet the dog" OR HUMAN...that's for sure. It's a quick way to "TEST" him.

Let's give the old man a nice senior experience and let him know YOU'RE taking over door duty and window watching and air sniffing and he doesn't need to worry about it. It may work for you now and in your current lifestyle but you never know what tomorrow brings.

Here's a more in depth synopsis from Leerburg Kennels. I can take or leave the "obedience training' part because I happen to believe more in the pack leader learning what calm assertive energy means which transfers to the dog but some people require obedience training to actually understand how that feels and what it means. But it doesn't mean rattling off a bunch of "commands" it means OWNING everything including and especially the front door. And owning the decisions of controlling the environment also called dominance.

Your dog is immediately rolling over on his back. He is submissive. He's showing respect to the visitors. They all have their characteristics and a pack needs a mix as there are "jobs" for each one. You never have an Iditarod sled team without strong MIDDLE pack members AND followers.

I'm saying all this since even if it's not that serious in your case 'cause lots of people hit on CD with dog comparisons in various degrees, too.

Leerburg | Q&A on Training Police Service Dogs

Wow, lots of stuff here. Interesting, thanks. See below....
1. Bark is very deep and focus seems strong
2. He tries to get between us and stranger, but we hold his collar, which he accepts. He doesn't lunge, but he certainly doesn't back off..
3. Haven't noticed, but i think it's high. He stands taller too. I'll pay attention.
4. Nothing remotely like this has ever happened.
5. By that measure he's not kidding, but we don't let him loose to charge. We tell the person he just wants to check them out and let him go. When he gets to the person he stops and sniffs and it's over. He is now immediatley in friendly mode if the person is somebody that likes large dogs (at worst he's indifferent, but never aggressive).
6. He never, ever does that, not even close. I wouldn't even know what you meant except that my brother's Golden retriever does exactly that.

[runswithscissors]

Originally Posted by kletter1mann

Wow, lots of stuff here. Interesting, thanks. See below....
1. Bark is very deep and focus seems strong
2. He tries to get between us and stranger, but we hold his collar, which he accepts. He doesn't lunge, but he certainly doesn't back off..
3. Haven't noticed, but i think it's high. He stands taller too. I'll pay attention.
4. Nothing remotely like this has ever happened.
5. By that measure he's not kidding, but we don't let him loose to charge. We tell the person he just wants to check them out and let him go. When he gets to the person he stops and sniffs and it's over. He is now immediatley in friendly mode if the person is somebody that likes large dogs (at worst he's indifferent, but never aggressive).
6. He never, ever does that, not even close. I wouldn't even know what you meant except that my brother's Golden retriever does exactly that.

Ahhh ok. So yeah, he sound's like it's just habit. But the hair standing up is the only slight concern. I mean, really you'd think by ten years old he'd be getting the POINT that people come and GO through doors.

Chaos at the door is a bit more tricky to read as a pet sitter but this is what I do. I try and get the owner away from the dog so I can focus on the DOG's true self.

Of course we're assuming they claim the dog is not a biter or they say "WELL, we always put him away when people come in." (red flag)

When I do a dog walking/pet sitting Meet and Greet with a new client I ask them to NOT influence the dog and just let them BE. Don't talk to them, don't hold their collar, don't talk to ME in an excited high voice. JUST OPEN THE DOOR AND GO SIT DOWN.

This is because I have to walk in there alone when they go away and MY method is the quickest way to get to know the dog. AND by watching the interaction with the owner.

Without FAIL the clingy owners just cannot follow my instructions hahaha.

Anyway, your energy holding that collar is going down to him. Of that I am SURE. It's why people have problems on walks when they see a human or another dog being walked and they inadvertently tense up and the dog feels it and reacts in kind.

If I wanted to learn about your dog I would ask you to open the door and do nothing and let HIM do his thing.

I would just stand there doing nothing for a minute and expect him to sniff me and either turn and walk away OR in some cases especially like a LAB start nosing me and intruding on my personal space. I don't speak, give eye contact or touch them.

I want to see how they react. Do they go hide? Do they go cling to the owner? Do they keep trying to get my attention like I'm the quarterback in the high school ignoring all the girls" (that's what I'm going for!). Do they bring me a toy? etc etc...

If I can determine they're not going to bite me I just walk right PAST or THROUGH them. It really all depends. If I have to, I tell the owner to LEASH them and walk them over to their bed or something. That's for the ones that say, have HAIR STANDING UP! LOL

After I go sit down I STILL ignore the dog. (usually unless they're really funny or something).I want to go through my M&G process and speak with the owner and still WATCH the dog out of the corner of my eye. Especially if there are more than one. THEN at the END I interact with the dog(s).

My ex used to rehab last chance GSD dogs and THEY are in their own category - the unbalanced ones who aren't rehab'd yet. They usually stand RIGHT THERE calmly and stealthy and WAIT. Sort of a DARE. "Oh ok, you just TRY getting past ME". My BF used to "release" the "normal"ones and tell them to "go to your place".

SO, you holding the collar is a message to his brain; you're CONFIRMING that there's an "issue" with someone coming in. Also HOLDING a dog BACK creates HIM going FORWARD.

If I were you, I would just stand right in front of him blocking...and DIRECT him with my body language and energy or one word. A few feet BACK from that door.

YOU OWN THAT FOYER NOT HIM. (if you care) Some people put a broom down to mark where they have to stop. A reminder to the HUMAN because the dog will GET IT after you keep doing it and FOLLOWING THROUGH until he relaxes where you want him. THEY UNDERSTAND ENERGY.

IF he gets between you and the guest AFTER THE GREETING...like when you say, walk into the kitchen, that's a SIGNAL he feels he has to protect you. CIRCLING the guest is BAD. It doesn't sound like your dog does either of these things. BUT maybe WATCH.

Does he sit between you and the guest in the living room? For example. If so, I would NOT approach you.

Yeah, #6 is confusing. I meant a dominant dog (one who is confident and wants to control his surroundings or is going to BITE)....will keep GOING FORWARD even if I step forward towards him. He should NOT do that. It's considered disrespectful in dog language. he should always YIELD to the human. Even a kid.

A submissive dog who is nervous bluffing will walk backwards when I walk forwards towards them. So your brother's Golden is submissive.

Either scenario can cause a bite in an unstable dog. (Me walking forwards.) The IDEAL balance is for the dog to TURN away and chill when I walk FORWARD. Perhaps walk WITH me but not be annoying or trying to intimidate me.

SO, even though your dog is not a red zone case as far as we know he hasn't been TESTED to see if he will simply let the person walk in and go about their business.

If you care, you can put him 6 feet from the door and start new rules. NO charging the door. You WAIT calmly for the person to get inside and WE GIVE YOU PERMISSION to sniff. You must do it as many times as it takes and be CONSISTENT. Because if YOU step BACK or he passes you you LOSE POINTS.

NEVER STEP BACK! Not even on one foot hahaha.

A sniff is NOT an invitation to pet. I walk in and IGNORE. I go sit down.

NOW,if I think I'm gonna get bit , NO. LOL I'm pretty good at reading that body language and the human's too.

They will also maybe nail me when I try and leave. The unstable ones. I decline those jobs especially mostly because the PEOPLE won't cooperate in ways to desensitize the dog to me. Those are the unstable OWNERS LOL.

I don't want to tell you to just let him loose on his own and have people walk IN because we have no idea really AND because the PEOPLE may convey UNSTABLE energy or fear. I could walk in...but I know how to act and react...unlike, say some workman or some lady delivering pizza LOL. OK, well he'd probably like the pizza delivery.

I totally believe he's never remotely done that snap to passing people. But I HAVE seen it happen as they get older and grouchy. Even my own Bulldog in his sleep would get all growly and bite the air around my feet if I annoyed him laying on the sofa...who would never bite a soul in his entire life LOL.

But a more serious case, a Rot dog friend of mine bit his girlfriend's lip half off once when she leaned over to kiss the guy and the dog was sleeping on the sofa next to him.

Thanks for the brain teaser, I love trying to LEARN from all dogs.