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Old 01-04-2008, 01:12 AM
68 posts, read 391,685 times
Reputation: 43


Originally Posted by citybythebay View Post
*Note the messages in bold lettering*
Here...here! It is a long road...and one which I am more than willing to trot down...as are quite a few other APBT/Staff owners on this BB.
Quite frankly, I find the business of crying "animal racism!' or "dog racism!" kind of far-fetched, and refuse to buy into it.
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Old 01-04-2008, 01:22 AM
68 posts, read 391,685 times
Reputation: 43
Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
Moderator cut: please, facts only

Yesterday you said they were Staffordshire Bull Terrier and Bullmastiff. Today they are Terrier and British Bulldog.

Throughout history I have never seen nor heard of a breed known as the regular bulldog. They are a cross of bull and terrier breeds, not a bulldog and a terrier. The British Bulldog “later” came into existence…ok, I guess all those books, painting and record keeping have all been wrong about the breeds long time existence.

If the Pit Bull has a locking jaw because it has bulldog ancestors then at least a dozen other breeds should as well since they are descendants of bulldogs and some bull and terrier…lol

Moderator cut: edited

The American Bulldog is a separate breed to from the APBT. What was the reason for mentioning them? American Bulldogs were used for treeing bears, driving cattle, guarding farms against predators and catching game. These dogs are descended from the same Bulldogs as the APBT. There history runs a similar course of being brought to the US from overseas. When they were used on farms they were not shepherds. They were driving dogs and holding dogs. Who would catch and hold a bull or boar with their strength and wide jaw. This was an easy task with their history as bull baiting and combat dogs and much needed for the farmer. This is similar to other breeds of dogs used as butcher dogs who would catch and hold cattle most often for slaughter. The Scott, Painter, and Margentina types in some instances look very close to APBTs at times. As well it is a known fact that strains of AB have without a doubt Pit Bull blood crossed into them. The ABA registered even full blooded Pits as American Bulldogs and bred into AB stock. Many an American Bulldog were used as pit fighting dogs as well in America. Why change the breeds history now. Casey Corturier (the founder of ABA) had both APBT and AB he likely crossbred as well. Consider many APBTs from his early dogs were larger then average, had the AB head/body and some were piebald. The same goes for his ABs he even advertised a couple of the bloodlines in an AB of his that were APBTs bloodlines I believe. People have often cross bred the AB and APBT some even still do. The AB has had a good bit of refining; there are a few different types/strains.

http://www.american-bulldog.com/fang.jpg (broken link)
This is one of Casey's prized males White Fang. He was shot to death by a neighbor after chasing the neighbors dog back to its owners home. When living he was said to like to get into trouble with not only Casey's large boar stud but also his 90lbs “Pit Bull” Which shows the AB influence in itself by size alone.

Moderator cut: editThey were never bred as attack dogs. They were bred mainly as Pit fighting dogs and human aggression culled out of them. So your statement is an oxymoron of sorts. If they were bred for “attack dogs” (guard, protection whatever), well for one they’d have to be used at such to selective the traits and temperament of such a dog when breeding. They would also be the ones with protection and guard titles or being used in this field the like GSD, Rotti, Dobie or Corso (ect). I’m sure pit dogmen were too busy conditioning their dogs and fighting them to worry about selecting a dog that would make a good attack dog. Since they also expected a dog that would allow anyone to condition, handle and vet them they needed one that wouldn’t bite a person. Dogs passed from numerous owners at times as well without problem, they most readily accept humans as their friends.
The foundation of this breed is Moderator cut: editfrom the early bull and terrier crosses. If they are being selected for fight drive in gameness then that is due to breeding, how can one say that in one breath and then say they are trained for fighting. No it isn’t too the death, not saying it can’t end that way, Moderator cut: edit Why do 2 dogs go in and usually 2 came out? If the fighting is to the death how do losers go to fight again or be retired to a stud dog? How can they do this if they are dead? Seems impossible to me. There are countless winners and just the same there are countless loser who didn’t die fighting, they died from heartworms, cancer, old age, ect. The thing most likely to kill a fighting would be shock afterward. If they went into it in the first place and if it couldn't be combated. Some might die of infection due to injury, this could even be a week after once it spreads thoughout the body. Dying from fight related injury isn't the same thing as fighting to the death. Pits can take a beating a live probably due to their past breeding. When the Pit pup I spoke about with 13 broken bones due to abuse came in the ASPCA lady/vet said if she had been another breed she probably wouldn't have survived. There are of course other miracle dogs and formidable breeds out there.

So where is the special risk? It is known that pits were used mainly for fighting (and a few other task). You still haven’t explained where the special risk is. Since the breeding shows to have a made a dog opposite of what you are saying Moderator cut: edit
SCIENTIFIC evidence has already shown that Pit Bull don’t have a special jaw design different from other breeds nor do the lock. This is based on facts and not something a person with too much imagination made up.

Other breeds bite and immediately release their hold and back off? Where did you get that tid bit from? The GSD which was shown attacking on film wouldn’t let go of the suspects leg. They told the dog to out several times, tried physically stopping him. The dog continued to hold and shake and even pulled the guy a couple feet by his leg. When Rottweilers attack they generally grab on and pull down. In no way do they quickly bite and release, none of the Rotts I’ve watched ever did this. Again some probably do, depending on the bite. American Bulldogs being bred for catch work they certainly don’t bite and let go. They have competitions for American Bulldogs called “hang time” in which the dog must hang suspended from the ground for a certain length of time and also shake tenaciously. The dog has to meet a min. time and then they are judged by how much they shake and such. They use this same method when catching a boar or attacking a human. There are many other breeds which probably do this by default such as Dogo Argentinos and other breeds still do it even without being bred for fighting, catch or baiting. I’ve seen Jack Russells and Boston Terriers which could hang for a long time, don’t tell me they have locking jaws too? The Golden that attacked was being beaten by his owner and still didn’t stop. Moderator cut: edit
I would also like to know since only Pit Bulls attack, do such bad damage and don’t let go why that Rottweiler ran out of the house and grabbed an 18 month old out of the stroller and was shaking him around (i.e. not letting go) and had to be beat off by a cop? The dog obviously didn’t let go and didn’t just bite and release, it intentionally grabbed that kid out of the stroller and I don’t think the kid provoked him.

No they don’t bite like that specifically. Most large breeds can break bones including Pit Bulls, but that’s including. This isn’t like a regular occurrence anyway. When people are attacked by Pit Bulls or other breeds it isn’t broken bones that is a danger but lacerations that lead to nerve damage and possibility of bleeding to death, especially if arteries are hit.

DH had no broken bones are deep penetration when bit. The dog didn’t bite and hold on, they bit and stopped right away. Moderator cut: edit Its not about breed its about the individual dog, why they attack, how they attack and such plays a part on whether it’s a quick bite or a full blown attack in which they won’t stop or let go.

Moderator cut: edit
So the reason that Pom killed the baby is because it provoked the dog? The Doxie which chewed the boys genitals off was provoked by this child. The Huskies which killed the small boy was provoked? I doubt any of that. It doesn’t matter what breed a baby doesn’t intentionally provoke the dog. So they attacked without provocation? Unless you honestly think a 6 week old baby is a threat! The problem is owners who are not responsible, no training, no human alpha leader. The dogs attack because they are the alpha, they are scared/threatened or jealous. Of course that includes Pit Bulls but having restrictions for them isn’t going to stop the serious attacks and deaths caused by other breeds so it seems pretty pointless.

Moderator cut: edit If Pits WILL snap out of the blue can you please explain how they die at 12-19yrs old and never snap or turn out of the blue and attack? Including those put in situations of not only being around family members but also being around many strangers and different environments as therapy or service dogs. I’m just a bit confused since they will go against their breeding and just attack out of the blue. Which of course makes no sense first you were saying genetic this and DNA that, but then ignore the fact they’ve been bred gentle, stable, human friendly, now they will go AGAINST breeding instead of acting as they are bred. Moderator cut: edit If the dog is not raised right in the correct household bad things will happen, from a bad habit to a seriously dangerous dog. If the dog is bred wrong and even possibly cross bred with a larger guardian breed then serious trouble can and does abound.

The fact that Pits were not even known for biting, let alone mauling and killing people, when they were used almost exclusively for fighting spoils your theory yet again. Most even pet Pits at that time were bred from pit stock. Just as Petey was bred from pit stock, so were other non fighting dogs. Even CH Jimmy Boots started out as a house pet and was also allowed to freely roam the neighborhood along with the rest of town dogs. Children were also more likely to be playing outside alone then they are now, yet they were not being maimed and killed by Pit Bulls or others breeds even though the dogs roamed free. There are certainly a significant available for a Pit Bull or other breed to attack these unsupervised children. Yet they were not harmed.
Therein lies the crux of what I've been pointing out, apbtsamara. The fact that pitbulls are crossbreeds between various types of bulldogs and bull terriers are why they've been bred precisely for fighting. There's a golden rule for people who own pitbulls: Never trust your pitbull not to fight! That's a point well taken. Imho, dogs that were bred primarily for fighting are not suitable for pets. Their lineage makes them ideal fighting dogs.
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Old 01-04-2008, 01:23 AM
Location: Camano Island, WA
1,913 posts, read 8,730,221 times
Reputation: 1150
Originally Posted by mapl View Post
Quite frankly, I find the business of crying "animal racism!' or "dog racism!" kind of far-fetched, and refuse to buy into it.

Crying animal racism? No one is crying anything. And furthermore no one is asking YOU to buy into anything. May be you could be a little more open to other opinions before you post any further hype and hysteria.

As far as name calling and sarcasm with the following quote by you, do you really think that is neccessary?
We all knew that this subject would attract the sharks, who're now here on a feeding frenzy
Or was that your ultimate goal?

You still have not provided any credible links to back up your theory, facts and research?

Instead you keep bumping this topic...I think the writing is on the wall.

*Seeing that you just replied with another one liner post *below* is leaning more towards the fact that you are flaming this topic* Sad....very sad....

Last edited by citybythebay; 01-04-2008 at 01:29 AM.. Reason: Added bottom comment @ 3:26 am
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Old 01-04-2008, 01:26 AM
68 posts, read 391,685 times
Reputation: 43
Originally Posted by Harley_man View Post
I will keep laughing because every pit bull I have ever owned has been the best dog I could ever ask for. I'm sorry but Your sources sound fake because if you ask most trainers a pit bull is easy to train because in their dna they are bred to want to please there owners more than anything. They only fight to please their owners because thats how their owners trained them. So you are contradicting yourself. You just have a dislike towards them and your prospective is searching for reasons to hate them. It's sad that most people think like you because if they really did there research instead of shooting there mouths off they would know that pit bulls out of any breed of dog was bred specifically to obey their owners. Ive talked to vets and breeders who dedicate their lives to studying this breed, and they have told me that pit bulls are more suitable as pets than anyother dog because they have had the pack mentallity bred out of them, because they are specifically bred to relate towards humans. My advice to you is read some books, talk to some vets, and talk to some respectable pit bull breeders before you have such a hatefull opinion.
I disagree with you.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:17 AM
Location: The Great State of Arkansas
5,981 posts, read 17,767,123 times
Reputation: 7713
MODERATOR: And I disagree with the whole tone of this thread...it has gone from being informative to having a hateful tone. If I edited out all of the personal attacks we would have about 3 paragraphs to deal with.

PLEASE, people - this is a hot topic but it can be discussed calmly, without calling each other idiots!

I'm going to have to say this - there will be future threads on APBTs. This one happened to come out of Massachusetts and in my eyes pertained only to MA law under consideration...be that as it may, in the future threads no lenience will be given on personal attacks. Everyone has a position and that's great...and we cannot prevent those who provide misinformation, that's not the job of the moderator - nor is it the job of other posters to hurl insults from either side.

Closing this thread. Perhaps everyone will settle down and we can re-visit this in the future....but not today.
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