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So my kelpie is just a squish of a dog. Very sweet and loves everyone. He's been kind of increasingly insecure since the Catahoula died, but getting a kitten to keep him company has been a HUGE help. They love each other (ok, probably she is madly in love with him, and he is just bewildered, but she keeps him occupied). So he was very ill as a puppy with paarvo, and he no doubt had some bad experiences the vet, but he's been very tolerant up until now. He's always had an insane level of bite inhibition, and although he never made contact, he
WE just had our first visit to the vet since his Catahoula buddy died, and he was snapping at the vet the entire time. He even tried hiding behind the kitten. The vet is convinced it's because he didn't have his bolder brother with him, which I buy. But how do I stop it from happening again?
He was fine in the waiting room and in the examination room right up until the vet touched him.
My inclination is to just bring a ton of high-value treats next time and give commands and play games until we're done, but is there a better methodology?
Agree that kelpie didn't know how to behave without having his buddy to take his cues from.
Questions:
Had anything earlier in the day stressed the kelpie or put him over threshold?
Kelpie snapped at vet when the vet touched him.
What were you and vet doing prior to the vet touching kelpie?
Was the vet tech restraining the kelpie?
Where did the vet touch him and what were you doing at that time?
Was there anywhere that the vet could have touched kelpie that he wouldn't have snapped at the vet? For instance, would kelpie have been ok with vet petting under chin or scratching his ears?
I know you said kelpie was snapping at the vet, but did that progress to nose touching or putting his mouth on the vet?
Kelpie wouldn't have snapped at you, so how do you think kelpie would react if you were running your hands over him while the vet simultaneously touched him?
What happened when the kelpie snapped at the vet? Did the vet stop the exam? Muzzle the kelpie and continue exam? Or?
How long did it take kelpie to calm down once the vet stopped touching him (or ended the exam)?
Last edited by twelvepaw; 10-11-2017 at 06:54 PM..
Agree that kelpie didn't know how to behave without having his buddy to take his cues from.
Questions:
Had anything earlier in the day stressed the kelpie or put him over threshold?
Kelpie snapped at vet when the vet touched him.
What were you and vet doing prior to the vet touching kelpie?
Was the vet tech restraining the kelpie?
Where did the vet touch him and what were you doing at that time?
Was there anywhere that the vet could have touched kelpie that he wouldn't have snapped at the vet? For instance, would kelpie have been ok with vet petting under chin or scratching his ears?
I know you said kelpie was snapping at the vet, but did that progress to nose touching or putting his mouth on the vet?
Kelpie wouldn't have snapped at you, so how do you think kelpie would react if you were running your hands over him while the vet simultaneously touched him?
What happened when the kelpie snapped at the vet? Did the vet stop the exam? Muzzle the kelpie and continue exam? Or?
How long did it take kelpie to calm down once the vet stopped touching him (or ended the exam)?
Well, the vet is very soothing but does her job quickly. My Catahoula loved her when he was alive, and the kitten was entirely fine with her exam and shots. The kelpie tensed up when she started the exam, seemed ok when she ran her hands over him, but started with the snapping when she tried to get at his teeth. I just reached over and held up his lips so she could see his teeth. He wasn't happy about that, but didn't resist. I was right next to him the whole exam - I don't know if I was holding him or not (can't remember). No vet tech restraining him, no muzzle or anything like that. This was just a quick checkup and shots. She did the nasal bordatella, which has always freaked him out, but she was really quick with that, and he was ok for the other shots.
He did not bite the vet or put his mouth on her. I mean, this was not a blatant display of aggression - it was just shocking to me because this dog has never snapped at anyone and is not at all mouthy. And the vet was being very reassuring and affectionate with him. He'd always displayed what I considered a normal level of anxiety at the vet - just kind of unsettled, not very upset.
I'm thinking it's the combo of him not having his brother there to be his guide (his brother was hell on wheels at the vet, but never displayed any sign of aggression/being bitey to the vet or techs) and also probably bad memories from when he was a pup with paarvo at a high-kill shelter.
A squishy soft dog seeing the vet alone for the first time without his steady companion- not surprised he was a little freaked out.
Suggest doing a couple of "quick-hit" visits (only 4-5 minutes tops) to the vet during a quiet time to help him get used to going to vet's office alone, and also so he learns it is a fun thing with treats and love. Maybe have the vet just take him in a room, do some quick pets and gentle touches, and then leave before he tenses up, and then have play time on the way to the car. My concern is that we don't want him to begin to escalate the stress and become more fearful of going to the vet, so the "quick-hits" with lots of good stuff happening will keep him from building the expectation that the vet's office is an awful scary place.
Sounds like the snapping happened when she looked in his mouth- not surprising- lots of dogs don't like their teeth messed with. I make a game of it with my dogs. I give them the signal that I am going to look at their teeth (toothies!) and then pull their lips back make happy silly sounds then treat. I would also ask friends to do the mouth inspection to help him get used to having it done. You could also dab a bit of peanut butter on his nose to distract him when you look at his teeth. I do always give a signal though that tells my dog what I am going to do- toothies for teeth, footies for picking up feet, earies for looking in ears- silly but works for us.
Snapping, growls, and nose touches happen especially when handling an anxious/stressed dog- not aggressive at all just a sign of discomfort. Really, how else can the dog communicate that "hey, I am worried and don't understand what is going on and hey I really don't like that or hey that hurts".
Does your dog have a happy-go-lucky doggie friend who could go to the next vet visit with him? And maybe some DAP sprayed on a bandanna or some CBD oil to help take the edge off his anxiety.
When my sweet soft boy was so sick 3 years ago he spent 3 days overnight in the hospital and was very stressed when he came out. I think it was a combination of all the blood draws they did and the stress of being sick and away from home. It was awful for him. When I took him for his follow up visit to our regular vet he freaked out when she tried to examine him, and he still doesn't like being handled by women (other than me). He is fine with my other male vet. Who knows what happened, but it doesn't take much for a dog to make a negative connection with a situation, person, or place.
A squishy soft dog seeing the vet alone for the first time without his steady companion- not surprised he was a little freaked out.
Suggest doing a couple of "quick-hit" visits (only 4-5 minutes tops) to the vet during a quiet time to help him get used to going to vet's office alone, and also so he learns it is a fun thing with treats and love. Maybe have the vet just take him in a room, do some quick pets and gentle touches, and then leave before he tenses up, and then have play time on the way to the car. My concern is that we don't want him to begin to escalate the stress and become more fearful of going to the vet, so the "quick-hits" with lots of good stuff happening will keep him from building the expectation that the vet's office is an awful scary place.
Sounds like the snapping happened when she looked in his mouth- not surprising- lots of dogs don't like their teeth messed with. I make a game of it with my dogs. I give them the signal that I am going to look at their teeth (toothies!) and then pull their lips back make happy silly sounds then treat. I would also ask friends to do the mouth inspection to help him get used to having it done. You could also dab a bit of peanut butter on his nose to distract him when you look at his teeth. I do always give a signal though that tells my dog what I am going to do- toothies for teeth, footies for picking up feet, earies for looking in ears- silly but works for us.
Snapping, growls, and nose touches happen especially when handling an anxious/stressed dog- not aggressive at all just a sign of discomfort. Really, how else can the dog communicate that "hey, I am worried and don't understand what is going on and hey I really don't like that or hey that hurts".
Does your dog have a happy-go-lucky doggie friend who could go to the next vet visit with him? And maybe some DAP sprayed on a bandanna or some CBD oil to help take the edge off his anxiety.
When my sweet soft boy was so sick 3 years ago he spent 3 days overnight in the hospital and was very stressed when he came out. I think it was a combination of all the blood draws they did and the stress of being sick and away from home. It was awful for him. When I took him for his follow up visit to our regular vet he freaked out when she tried to examine him, and he still doesn't like being handled by women (other than me). He is fine with my other male vet. Who knows what happened, but it doesn't take much for a dog to make a negative connection with a situation, person, or place.
I'll try those suggestions - thank you!
Oh god, I used to have a male border collie who LOVED going to the vet. He was a favorite at my vet's office and would be mobbed by the vet techs whenever he came in the door so they could all snuggle him. Then he needed some oral surgery, and I took him to a specialist. Something freaked him out there and he was terrified of veterinary office ever after - literally would bolt for the door whenever he got the chance. I felt bad - the techs who were used to loving on him for years were saddened that he was suddenly scared of them.
I dunno. I'd be more inclined to nip this type of behavior in the bud. Take the alpha dog stance, and not tolerate it.
The rat terrier I adopted, tried to snap at me a couple times after I adopted her and I let her know in HUGE uncertain terms, that I was the alpha dog. I did not hit or hurt her, but I very LOUDLY let her know her behavior was not allowed and I was the boss.
I also had to be very assertive regarding her pulling on the leash while walking. I learned this with a trainer. Just a quick jerk on the collar - not enough to hurt her, but enough to really get her attention.
Some dogs need more aggressive training regarding who is the boss. With these types of dogs, I think it's a mistake to justify their behavior.
My dog is a sweetie, and she loves everyone. But, who knows what she got away with before I adopted her when she was roughly 5 or 6 years old. She's very bold, which is also a terrier trait, but she was apparently never taught manners - she will attempt to jump all over everyone, and do everything in her power to kiss everyone's faces - even if they are trying to avoid it.
So, it's up to me to keep her in line. And no excuses are acceptable with some of my neighbors in wheelchairs and oxygen tanks and tubes, etc.
I understand the desire to try to be understanding and kind when a dog misbehaves, but you just really can't allow it. Someone can be hurt, or you can be sued.
A soft touch doesn't always work. You don't have to be cruel or draw blood, but sometimes you just have to let a dog know who is the boss - in no uncertain terms.
I dunno. I'd be more inclined to nip this type of behavior in the bud. Take the alpha dog stance, and not tolerate it.
There is no such thing as an "alpha dog stance". Most if not all old school trainers use this as an excuse for their lack of knowledge and/or their use of methods that were disproven long ago.
The rat terrier I adopted, tried to snap at me a couple times after I adopted her and I let her know in HUGE uncertain terms, that I was the alpha dog. I did not hit or hurt her, but I very LOUDLY let her know her behavior was not allowed and I was the boss.
Some dogs need more aggressive training regarding who is the boss. With these types of dogs, I think it's a mistake to justify their behavior.
Using more "aggressive" training methods will either push an already anxious or fearful dog to become even more fearful and/or cause them to shut down completely. Either way, what you risk ending up with is either a dog who bites as a result of fear or a dog who is so afraid that they simply become unresponsive.
I understand the desire to try to be understanding and kind when a dog misbehaves, but you just really can't allow it. Someone can be hurt, or you can be sued.
This wasn't an example of a dog "misbehaving"; this was an anxious soft dog who had always relied on his bolder brother to give him cues and let him know that it was safe. This was the first time this dog was seeing the vet by himself and consequently was anxious. "Harsh" methods would have been inexcusable.
A soft touch doesn't always work. You don't have to be cruel or draw blood, but sometimes you just have to let a dog know who is the boss - in no uncertain terms.
This is just sheer utter nonsense
The alpha dog nonsense used by old school trainers was debunked a long time ago. "Alpha" behavior simply doesn't exist in the example the OP used.
NMSFN when you use the methods you describe there is a very high risk of causing a fearful/anxious dog to become reactive. You also run the risk of severely damaging the relationship you have with your dog. Your trainer gave you really really inexcusably bad advice. I am sorry that your trainer gave you this advice, especially without giving you a more comprehensive explanation of the limitations and possible consequences of using these methods.
Last edited by twelvepaw; 10-12-2017 at 07:09 AM..
So my kelpie is just a squish of a dog. Very sweet and loves everyone. He's been kind of increasingly insecure since the Catahoula died, but getting a kitten to keep him company has been a HUGE help. They love each other (ok, probably she is madly in love with him, and he is just bewildered, but she keeps him occupied). So he was very ill as a puppy with paarvo, and he no doubt had some bad experiences the vet, but he's been very tolerant up until now. He's always had an insane level of bite inhibition, and although he never made contact, he
WE just had our first visit to the vet since his Catahoula buddy died, and he was snapping at the vet the entire time. He even tried hiding behind the kitten. The vet is convinced it's because he didn't have his bolder brother with him, which I buy. But how do I stop it from happening again?
He was fine in the waiting room and in the examination room right up until the vet touched him.
My inclination is to just bring a ton of high-value treats next time and give commands and play games until we're done, but is there a better methodology?
Sounds like he had a bad day in the midst of what is a confusing bad time for him. In addition to losing the reassuring presence of his brother he might also feel pressure to be responsible for the kitten.
I’d take him back to the vet, or at least the office for a quick “social” visit without the kitten. Get the staff or preferably the vet to give him the quick pet and “good boy” treatment (cookies included) without any vet stuff.
Sounds like he had a bad day in the midst of what is a confusing bad time for him. In addition to losing the reassuring presence of his brother he might also feel pressure to be responsible for the kitten.
I’d take him back to the vet, or at least the office for a quick “social” visit without the kitten. Get the staff or preferably the vet to give him the quick pet and “good boy” treatment (cookies included) without any vet stuff.
Yes, we're going to be doing that periodically. It's around the corner, so we can stop in to get him weighed and have the staff love on him.
But no, he doesn't feel responsible for the kitten - he tried to use her as a feline shield She was sitting there calm as can be and he ducked behind her when the vet came for him. There was nothing protective about him in that moment, just panic.
Yes, we're going to be doing that periodically. It's around the corner, so we can stop in to get him weighed and have the staff love on him.
But no, he doesn't feel responsible for the kitten - he tried to use her as a feline shield She was sitting there calm as can be and he ducked behind her when the vet came for him. There was nothing protective about him in that moment, just panic.
That's a riot!
I'm going to 2nd 12paw's advice. I will also agree that the alpha routine here is inadvisable. Yes, I understand there are times and places for such, but I don't think this sounds anything like one. In addition, this is a kelpie, a herding collie breed, bred for independence of thought and action (translate as can be more sensitive to negative reinforcements, and not in predictable ways).
Lots of high value treats at the time of greatest stress may or may not work - mine will take them in their mouth and drop them on the floor. Treat declined. So, I do drop-in good-times quickie visits. Get the pet weighed, say hello. It helps - and at no cost - since we are not seeing the vet unless they happen by the waiting area.
I would also mention that progress for something like this may seem slow. Work it consistently.
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She was sitting there calm as can be and he ducked behind her when the vet came for him. There was nothing protective about him in that moment, just panic.
