Dogs got into a kerfluffle (aggressive, train, diet, humping)
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We have two large (87 lb) dogs. One is 1.5 yr (Dante) old male, the 2nd (Steve) is around 5 yrs. Both are fixed, Dante as a puppy and Steve 6 months ago when we got him.
They get along very well, and play hard all the time. When they play hard the hackles go up, but they usually stop and shake it off and resume a little calmer. If we tell them to knock it off they stop no problem.
Today they got into it a little more serious (I think it was Dante who was being more aggressive), and when I told them to stop they didn't. In these situations Steve is usually the more obedient. I ended up throwing my phone at Steve and they stopped immediately. We separated them for about 10 minutes then put them back together in the back yard and all was fine. They do seem to be ignoring each other a bit.
It all sounded worse than it was, no marks on either.
What is the appropriate thing to do in this case?
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It seems like dogs just figure out who is the boss, and left alone, they seem to work these things out on their own, and you don't need to really intervene if they are physically and/or emotionally matched.
So, I really wouldn't worry about it, since nobody drew blood. They're just figuring out who is the boss between them. I'd just observe from now on, but not worry about it unless you really end up needing to.
They seem okay now and were wrestling in the yard, and then playing "look how big my mouth is! No mine is bigger... no mine!!!!"
I just want to make sure I handle it properly so they do not get into an adversarial relationship. My sister's dogs get into it and sounds horrendous, but the trainer said to let them go at it.... and neither has hurt the other.
It's weird as I can't figure out which is the alpha, Steve can take him, he is built like a tank and uses his weight (he is going on a diet ) and is used to being in pack of hunting dogs, he also mounts Dante. Dante does a bunch of alpha stuff like putting his head over Steve's neck and his paw.... but Steve just ignores it. Steve does check Dante when he gets irritating and Dante just goes and pouts....
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Not ok to let them work it out with the kind of behaviors they are showing. I would find a certified trainer (maybe 12paw can tell you how to search) who can help with this. And I would keep them separated when you are not at home.
Since you don't know the exact trigger, don't take a chance now. One could take a turn at being crated when you are away, and you could switch it out. At least until you figure it out. Like you said you don't want them to have an adversarial relationship.
Don't guess.
They could do serious damage, and using "the alpha thing" as a human thought process is no long considered appropriate by most trainers. As usual I am not the best writer, and can't be specific enough.
Dante is coming of age, and they are both too big and strong to be left to "figure it out on their own".
Steve sounds steady, and Though he can teach Dante quite a bit, it is not all his responsibility, right?
Dante should not be trying to push Steve around, Steve doesn't sound like he is interested in wresting a spot from Dante. He's just annoyed with the unruly kid.
In the next year and a half Dante (once most dogs are about 3 they are usually settled into themselves) could become a huge bully, sounds like he is already pushing the limits of Steve's patience. I would work on not allowing the over the top behaviors.
Putting his head over the others head and humping are not necessary in a dog who has confidence.
I'd get Dante involved in obedience/ agility/ Nosework, something, anything that would build his confidence, and would lead him to not consider Steve the thing he needs to control. He needs to learn to control himself
If Dante continues the rude behavior, eventually he might not be able to live with another dog at all (if the behavior continues unchecked).
When you could call them off of it, that was good when you couldn't it became dangerous.
I have to agree with simplepeace on not allowing them to work it out themselves. While you gave us their ages and sexes, you didn't let us know breeds, which can be important.
We have to two dogs, six months apart in age, altered opposite sexes, however being herding breeds, there is no way I can safely leave them unattended! Both dogs are obedient, but once they cross a line they don't know how to shut down and I must divert their attention. I would hate to come home to an injured or worse dog!
We have two large (87 lb) dogs. One is 1.5 yr (Dante) old male, the 2nd (Steve) is around 5 yrs. Both are fixed, Dante as a puppy and Steve 6 months ago when we got him.
They get along very well, and play hard all the time. When they play hard the hackles go up, but they usually stop and shake it off and resume a little calmer. If we tell them to knock it off they stop no problem.
Today they got into it a little more serious (I think it was Dante who was being more aggressive), and when I told them to stop they didn't. In these situations Steve is usually the more obedient. I ended up throwing my phone at Steve and they stopped immediately. We separated them for about 10 minutes then put them back together in the back yard and all was fine. They do seem to be ignoring each other a bit.
It all sounded worse than it was, no marks on either.
What is the appropriate thing to do in this case?
In a former life, we had something very similar and called in a trainer. I don't know if this applies to you, but it was determined we got the two dogs pretty close together (about a year apart) and instead of bonding with us, the dogs bonded together. We were given individual bonding exercises for each person in the family for each dog. We will never know if the exercises worked or if the initial anxiety/tension just wore off. But it was years before we left them alone with each other for any extended period.
I dunno, I don't think it's that big of a deal. Dogs have spats. If you could break it up by throwing a cell phone at one of the dogs and nobody was hurt, it wasn't a very serious fight at all. Dante is getting older and flexing his muscles and figuring out his place relative to Steve. And given that Steve was in an abusive pack situation, he's not going to back down. Supervise them. You might want to train them to settle down on command when they get overexcited.
I am inclined to agree to let the dogs settle things, even though it may sound horrendous when it is happening. But I do say inclined to agree, not 100%. After all, maybe they rely on you to break things up. I wouldn't look too hard at who is "alpha" - in my experience dogs are rarely one "alpha" - most have one situation or another where they take more of the "leader" role. My current two are sis and bro - littermates. Bro likes to act like Mr. Manager, but he won't even think about taking a meaty neck bone from a common dish until she has taken what she wants. And he's not just being polite.
She generally lets him be Mr. Manager, and act all alpha, while she acts more submissively. But there are plenty of times she is the definite leader, and she lets him know it. I remember back when I was a kid and we had lots of dogs around, the general rule-of-thumb was to let the dogs "settle it themselves". But there were lines that could be crossed. Since that was a long time ago, I would think today that line is probably when you think actual damage might occur as an even accidental outcome.
And I think throwing your phone was a great response! It DID get their attention! And that's what we should do with our phones more often, eh?
We have two large (87 lb) dogs. One is 1.5 yr (Dante) old male, the 2nd (Steve) is around 5 yrs. Both are fixed, Dante as a puppy and Steve 6 months ago when we got him.
They get along very well, and play hard all the time. When they play hard the hackles go up, but they usually stop and shake it off and resume a little calmer. If we tell them to knock it off they stop no problem.
Today they got into it a little more serious (I think it was Dante who was being more aggressive), and when I told them to stop they didn't. In these situations Steve is usually the more obedient. I ended up throwing my phone at Steve and they stopped immediately. We separated them for about 10 minutes then put them back together in the back yard and all was fine. They do seem to be ignoring each other a bit.
It all sounded worse than it was, no marks on either.
What is the appropriate thing to do in this case?
You are probably heading towards a serious dog fight and you'd best change your management of these dogs before it happens.
I'll stop there as this is when people who don't want to hear the reality of the situation get all defensive and say "oh no they were only playing I didn't really mean it!"
If you are serious about wanting to head this off I can give you some good resources.
Putting his head over the others head and humping are not necessary in a dog who has confidence.
I'd get Dante involved in obedience/ agility/ Nosework, something, anything that would build his confidence, and would lead him to not consider Steve the thing he needs to control. He needs to learn to control himself
If Dante continues the rude behavior, eventually he might not be able to live with another dog at all (if the behavior continues unchecked).
When you could call them off of it, that was good when you couldn't it became dangerous.
Steve is the one who mounts Dante. Steve is great at pinning Dante when they play, he has a center of gravity that can take a human out at the knees. They just seem to trade off being in charge. We call Dante off all the time for trying to "make" Steve play when he doesn't want to, but also let the work it out on their own most of the time.
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) and is used to being in pack of hunting dogs, he also mounts Dante. Dante does a bunch of alpha stuff like putting his head over Steve's neck and his paw.... but Steve just ignores it. Steve does check Dante when he gets irritating and Dante just goes and pouts....
