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Thank you for that link. In that story, their dog had also been around the cat for 9 years without issue until the day it was an issue. Same scenario, pretty much: have high places for cats to go, have had to put the boy behind a baby gate or in a crate while I was gone not just for the cats, but to prevent the sibling rivalry, but in my case, it wasn't because he hadn't been in his crate while I was gone, it was right when I got home, and I unlatched his crate so he could push the door open, and I walked another 2 steps past it to take my jacket off - the cat in that 2 foot difference between me and the dog. But, there was plenty of room for my dog to go around, pass by the cat, not need to go around the cat...but just like them, 9 years of nothing, then suddenly, attack. It only lasted long enough for me to turn around and see, then yell at him to back off. Cat fled, I picked him up, put him in my bedroom, he went under the bed, and the boy dog went right back in his crate.
Maybe it's really that simple. It just can happen with dogs that have a high prey drive. He most definitely has one.
Last night, I put all the other pets in my room, he got the entire living area and kitchen to himself (which is also pet proofed). Because it was finally not a boiling hot day yesterday and last night, I kept the front door open (have a heavy metal screen door that you can't cut through with a box cutter), and let him "watch tv" all night if he wanted to. If anyone even tried to come to the door, there would have been so much racket and threats from my boy dog that they would either a) not even bother trying to come in, or b) make such a huge commotion trying to fight off the dog that everyone would know someone was trying to break in, so I wasn't worried about that. Which is yet another reason I don't want to have to resort to a euthanize - I just don't feel that's the answer.
Anyway, this morning, they all wanted out of the bedroom. At first, I thought I'd have to put the boy in his crate, and I didn't think that was fair, so I decided everyone else would go out, and he would come in.
But Whitey, who was in that room with just me for a good couple of months while he healed from his surgeries, decided that he didn't really want to be out, afterall. I made him stay out for about an hour, because he needs to get back to living in the rest of the house, but I decided to let him back in the room.
What to do with the boy?
I have resorted back to training 101. He's in the room. Whitey is also in the room. All others are out in the living area. The boy is on a short training leash. When I get up to do something, he comes along. Wherever I go in the house, he comes with me, leashed on that training leash.
When Whitey was flopped on his side on the bed, touching just the end of the boy's paw, I watched that boy like a hawk to read his body language. He just looked at me the entire time instead of paying attention to the cat. I praised him for that. I would then pet Whitey, then put my hand up to the boy's nose to take in the scent of the cat. And then I'd pet him. I then petted the cat for awhile to see if the boy would even look at the cat, and he'd start to, but then would whip his head back up to look at me and stare at me. He got petted for that.
I will never leave him alone unattended in the house with the cats. I will have to keep them separate even if I'm here. Whitey doesn't usually play with anyone but me. Before his surgeries, he would always flop on his side on the floor whenever the boy walked near him, and the worst the boy ever did was sniff him a few times, but the boy never took much of an interest in Whitey.
I'm still going to put him in the crate at some point each day even if I'm here, because I'd like to relax, and I can't when Whitey is in the room, as well, even if I have the boy on a short training leash. I have to watch, every movement. If I want to take a nap, he's going in the crate. If I want to do some work, where I need to concentrate, he's going in the crate. If I just want to zone out and play a game, he's going in the crate. Only when I can give my full attention to both of them, and monitor them, will he be in my bedroom with Whitey and me.
He will never have access to the others because the others are not as calm as Whitey. Whitey likes to sit on the window sill and look outside pretty much all day long. The others like to climb all over my furniture, and like to lie next to me on the bed - and are always changing their minds which one they want to do - and I do not have that type of energy to monitor all of them at the same time.
He also no longer will have access to his sister. He will be able to see her when I go from one room to another while he's on the leash and has to follow me, but she gets told to "back" when she wants to come up to greet him.
If I could find him a home who would take on a 9 year old fear of other dogs aggressive dog, and who apparently does have an issue with cats because of his high prey drive - then absolutely I would do it. I'm just not sure that would be very easy to find - most people don't want to put in the kind of work I have had to do for 9 years on this dog - even before he attacked Fluffy yesterday.
He's been a LOT of work - but he's also been teaching me a whole lot about dogs that I never knew before. It's been frustrating, it's been exhausting, it's been expensive (trainers), and it's had its rewards and education.
I will say, after he goes, I'm not getting another dog for a long, long time. I'm very tired. The girl dog is super easy, probably the best dog on the planet. She's friendly, playful, loves everyone, loves other dogs, gets excited over the simplest of things - everything about life is super fun for her.
Her brother - so. much. work. And clearly not going to give me rest to the day he passes.
It sounds like you are doing everything you can. I know it's not PC to say but I wouldn't personally hesitate to yell loudly/act very emotional if needed in addition to the training you are doing as this could be a life and death issue for your cat. Maybe even try body blocking the dog if he gets too close to one of the cats so he knows they are "off limits" from now on. Maybe then you can feel comfortable with them not being separated when you are there.
Your dog has issues with other dogs and now the cat but he loves and respects YOU so may respond to seeing you displeased. My dogs have my total attention if I start to cry, for instance. They think it's the end of the world and will whimper and try to lick my face until I stop. Of course, as you said in another post if the prey drive kicks in he may ignore you.
I say this partly because I know dogs speak the same language and can do a better job training each other than we can. My older beagle and my puppy have only been in a few "real" fights a year ago and one was over a cat. The puppy was sitting on one of the smallest, friendliest cats and she started crying and the older beagle (smaller in size) just lost it as he is so protective over the cats. He launched himself from across the room like "I am going to kill you!..." It's a good thing I was there to separate them as he meant business. The puppy is still ornery with the cats but he took a real beating that day and it did slow him down.
It's a good thing, as the puppy has learned to climb the cat condo! That is just one less "safe space" for the cats. He is a big beagle at 30 lbs and broke one of their trees. Luckily he is just trying to get a window seat and doesn't hurt them or I would have considered rehoming him myself while he was still young. BTW, I have no idea why the cats won't use their claws on him and it just adds to the problem.
My issue isn't as serious (that is curious that two of your other cats have died mysteriously) but I understand your frustration. I did rescue 20 years ago before it got popular. I guess I was just the crazy person who everyone would take stray animals to. LOL I had 5 dogs and 4 cats in the house with no problems. I didn't even own a crate or a gate if you can believe it. They all acted like a "family" together.
I hate separating animals too. It's very stressful to go through that daily. I will tell a good story since I included a link with scary ones. About 11 years ago my 19 year old cat had a seizure when I was at work. She was paralyzed from the neck down and just laying on the floor crying when I got home. The good part is that even though she was totally helpless the dogs didn't hurt her at all. At that time I was down to two dogs - a 90 lb GSD and the beagle I still have. I couldn't have blamed them if they hurt her accidently but they actually looked really concerned. Their eyes were really big and looking at me like, "What's wrong with kitty?" They were even carefully stepping around her before I got her to the vet.
I just want that peace again too of trusting all of my pets together. Hope you find some resolution that gives you that.
In 2008 and 2009, I was living in the Everglades and rescued a whole bunch of cats. Most of them were adopted out with help from a rescue in the area. I kept a few.
In 2010, some jerk wad dumped 3 puppies into traffic in Miami. One was hit and killed, and the other 2 pups came home with me. They were 3 months old at the time, (according to the vet).
Since then, my dogs and my cats have lived together without issues. Sometimes the sibling dogs would get into a tussle, but I alleviated that by keeping the boy behind a baby gate while I was gone, in one place I lived, and now he has a huge crate that he goes into when I'm gone at this place.
But I've never seen him attack my cats.
Yesterday, I came home from doing some work. I unhooked the door to the boy dog's crate. My cat, Daniel Striped Tiger (also known as 'Fluffy') was sitting on the living room floor, not even looking at the dog. He was just sitting there licking his arm, like cats do. I had just turned to take a jacket off, when I heard my dog go after my cat, not 2 feet away from me.
He literally clamped down on the back of his neck and started shaking him like he does stuffed toys I used to give him - used to. I don't give him stuffed toys anymore, and haven't for a long time because he eviscerates them in minutes after bringing them home, and then he tries to eat the stuffing. So, he hasn't had a stuffed toy in years. But he treated my cat like a stuffed toy - right in front of me, with no shame whatsoever.
Then I started to think of the sudden and fast downfall of my cat Rani and my cat Caspies who have since died. With Caspies, the vet could find no reason for my cat to be ill - which I thought he was ill. With Rani, I wondered if she had been attacked by another cat, because she didn't want anything to do with any of them, and she never went around the dogs anyway. I had them both checked out, and there were no wounds of any sort, no broken bones, nothing. But now I'm wondering - did he kill them, and we missed it somehow?
Anyway, what I know for sure is what I saw happen, right in front of me yesterday, like I said not even 2 feet from me.
I looked up information on the internet and found several stories from people who had dogs and cats that got along, or at least tolerated each other for years, and then suddenly, their dog attacks their cat or kills their cat.
Yes, my boy has a high prey drive, but again, I've had him for 9 years and never seen him go after one of the cats.
And, he's only 9. I don't think that's old in dog years, but I could be wrong. He seems just as healthy as always. He eats with the same excitement, he still plays when he's outside, he's still eager to please me, and usually shows his "submission" (I guess) to me by offering me his paw for a shake (which took 2 years for him to finally learn), and following me around the house, etc.
The absolute only thing that has changed in recent months is that I had my bedroom closed off to all pets except Whitey (my cat) because he was healing from surgery. But that has nothing to do with the other pets. None of them were allowed in. And he didn't attack Whitey, he attacked a cat that doesn't do anything to him. Fluffy minds his own business, never messes with the dogs, never tries to cuddle up to them, never hisses at them, never does anything. They just live together.
Why would this happen?
Now I can't trust my boy. I've got all the other pets in my room now since Whitey is healed and I can let them in, and the boy is out in the living room. The only other alternative is to keep him in his crate all day long which I don't think is the proper thing to do. He is in there when I'm out of the house, every time I'm out of the house, but wasn't when I was home - and until yesterday, that I know for a fact, he's never done that to any of the cats. (Unless he did do that to Caspies and Rani - I don't know.)
Why would this happen out of the blue for no reason? Again, Fluffy did not instigate him in any way. Fluffy wasn't staring at the boy, wasn't even paying attention to the boy. Wasn't in the boy dog's things, etc.
I feel like I should know the answer, but I just don't know why this happened, when it has never happened before - and the fact that he did it right in front of me - I don't even know what to say about that.
Yes, he gets exercise, yes he gets brain stimulation, yes he gets attention, no the cat didn't provoke him - literally did not provoke him at all, yes, I understand about packs, yes he gets fed last every day, yes I've let my dogs know that the cats are above them - and then suddenly, he treats one of my cats like a stuffed toy while I'm standing right there.
I understand that someone is going to say "take him to the vet, see if there's something wrong with him", I get that, and I will be doing just that, but I also want to know if there's any other reason that he did what he did that I'm not aware of.
Any chance the cat or cats "torture" or rather "play" with your boy while he is crated and they
are loose? He might have endured some play from the cats and having all this pent up excitement
exploding when you opened the crate.
If you think he might have killed 3 cats I would look for new home for him and
if you can't find a home then I would euthanize. Sad as it is.
...I know I can't trust him - and I have 3 options that I know about right now until/unless someone comes along with an idea of why he did what he did:
1) Rehome - almost impossible because he has fear aggression with other dogs. It can be a nightmare to take him out for walks sometimes because of the fact that so many people do not have their dogs contained in any way. This is not just where I live, but everywhere I have lived. I wrote about how we were put into the street during one walk in Maine in my neighborhood because a Golden Retriever was not in any way contained in his yard, and apparently decided that the sidewalk was also his property when we walked by. Around here, a loose dog sighting has happened so many times, that I have to take the boy on frequent short outings instead of 1 or 2 long ones. It's been that way for 3 years. I can't take him to a dog park - he loses his mind.
2) Keep him and let him live out the rest of his years, however long they may be, and keep the other pets in my bedroom when I'm here, and out in the rest of the house when I"m gone and the boy is in his crate. I can be out for hours at a time - but I don't know if this is good, either, because as much as thecats want to be in my room, they also want to be out in the other parts of the house, too. I don't know.
3) Euthanize. I really don't want to have to do that, because I feel like I'm doing something wrong, or I have missed something, or I have failed him somehow. I've been of the school of thought that says a dog never attacks unprovoked - and I still think that's true - but what happened yesterday looked unprovoked. The cat wasn't doing anything to him, and he didn't give any kind of warning. I know dog language. There was no warning. He didn't even growl, bark, anything. He just treated the cat like a stuffed toy out of nowhere. But, I'm the human - and even those of us who know a fair amount about dogs can still be that "stoopid hooman" who doesn't know enough, and what would cause this. I have thought about it - and I don't know the answer. I have to protect my other pets - at the same time, do I not also have the obligation to protect him? So, I've been trying to find out how I failed this dog. I'm at a loss, so here I am.
This would be too much for me to bear. Sometimes you have to think of yourself. You are their caregiver, their mother, their rock. If you have to expend all of this energy just to protect this one creature, you are taking away vital mental time from them, and yourself; just to continue to mother this one boy.
I know you've invested many years into his care, and the story of finding them on a freeway and watching one of his siblings get killed is horrible. But sometimes, you must go with the idea of doing what is best for all of them. I'd pick number 1, try to rehome him. I know you are thinking of his end of life, and you are all that he knows...but he is a threat to your other family members.
Your remark: Do I not have the obligation to protect him?
While you spend the next few months with the intricate ballet of walking your little family into one room before letting him go...and knowing how you are, seeing in his eyes the wonderment and "what did I do wrong?" (because the change for him will be noticed) I'd be looking diligently for him a new home. That is protecting him.
Last edited by TerraDown; 09-09-2019 at 09:17 AM..
Just thought of something else...others will have to clarify if this would work, because I have never used them.
*A muzzle? Could he be muzzled, and allowed to interact with his family until dinner time? Would this work?
Just a thought, I know you are in a tough spot Three Wolves.
I've got an insane catahoula mix and a kelpie. My dogs are only loose in the house with the cat when I'm home. They're in the kitchen when I go out and the cat is in the basement. They LOVE my cat, and she is kind of the boss. But I still don't take the chance. Because I think the cat would just be fine, but one of the dogs would probably lose an eye.
That said, I think you don't have to keep everyone separated forever. I would come home and let the dog out of his crate and give him some attention in the form of training - stuff like "Look at me" and down-stays and hand touches. Then I would let the other animals out or back in the room when you are sure he is calm. Make sure to spend time with him like you did with Whitey and him, just chilling and rewarding appropriate behavior. When he gets overstimulated or hyper, have a play/training session in a room without any of the other animals, then stick him in a crate to chill with a kong.
Border collies can have very high prey drives. But his took 9 years to come out. I would watch for predatory behavior and distract him with ... another training session involving lots of focus on you and lots of cookies as rewards. But mostly, I'd document when this behavior comes out and try to avoid that situation.
Then I started to think of the sudden and fast downfall of my cat Rani and my cat Caspies who have since died. With Caspies, the vet could find no reason for my cat to be ill - which I thought he was ill. With Rani, I wondered if she had been attacked by another cat, because she didn't want anything to do with any of them, and she never went around the dogs anyway. I had them both checked out, and there were no wounds of any sort, no broken bones, nothing. But now I'm wondering - did he kill them, and we missed it somehow?
I don't know why he suddenly attacked the cat, other than to say that dogs have been chasing cats for time immemorial.
I will say that when a dog kills a cat (or raccoon or anything else) he can't do it without leaving a trace. That Grab and Shake you describe is the dog grabbing to crush the rib cage and break their spine. If he killed your cat it would have been obvious. And it isn't a quiet affair either. So I doubt you missed it.
Obviously you'll have to keep them separated moving forward.
Since my posts are already too long, I'm going to reply to things I've read rather than quote each individual person.
First off - muzzle. Boy. I've tried that in the past when I was in Maine just so we could take a walk - although it turned out HE was not the problem during walks, it was the idiots who let their dogs roam their yards, unattended, not contained in anyw way that were the problem - and he screamed and thrashed at it until he ripped it off. Maybe I can find a stronger one - or maybe they have new ones now that they can't rip off? That IS something I would be willing to try. Then he can hang out with everyone, and the worst he could do is bash his muzzle on the cat - giving the cat plenty of time to get away. I'll definitely look into that.
Rehome - I've been looking. It hasn't been that long, but I called some rescues and they act like I'm giving up without trying. These fools have no flippin' clue just how very much I've worked on this dog. So - militant rescue places are out.
Can't kill without leaving a trace - well, that makes me feel better then. Because it was not obvious - and I'm only guessing - supposing. I have no evidence that he did take out Rani. Or even Caspies, for that matter. Maybe I'm just looking to blame since I hate that they died and I couldn't control it. Pretty lame of me to try to pin it on the dog - but again, Rani's was so sudden and made no sense. Caspies wasn't feeling well, and the vet found no wounds, broken bones, sprains, nothing. He was just ill and I had to hand feed him tiny little bites onto his tongue, make sure he got water (syringe style) - and he would bounce back, then get bad again. So, okay, it it would be obvious, then it wasn't him, and I just have to deal with the fact that I couldn't be a miracle worker.
My boy dog is never loose when I'm gone. It started way back just a few months after I rescued them, (and it was a literal rescue), because he and the girl that I saved are siblings - and sibling dogs apparently love to argue and go at each other. So he's always been confined in some way when I'm out of the house. This was when I just got home.
Which is a nice segue into what I've discovered: I paid very close attention to my dogs the last following days to find out what caused them to lose their ish. Turns out - it's me. I always "knew" this, but never thought it meant anything negative, but they get wild when I come home, when I leave, and on my days off, when I get up and go to another room. They get super excited any time I move.
They like to follow me around all over the house and see what I'm up to. And maybe this is my own dang fault. When I lived in Maine, I specifically chose the place to rent that I did because it had a huge back yard for the dogs, and inside it was 2 stories - had stairs and tons of room - and I got that for the cats. Me going from say my bedroom to the living room, or the kitchen, wasn't like me going from my bedroom to the living room here. This place is smaller. ANYWAY, in that house in Maine, every time I got up, the dogs got excited, and I fed into that by saying, "ROAD TRIP!" even if I was just going down the hall - because they were delighted to go everywhere that I went. I thought it was funny how thrilled they were for a trip downstairs -and I fed into it. And now, we are in a smaller place - but they still get super excited. Great job, me.
Quality time with the boy: He's actually getting ore one on one time with me since this happened. I hate having to put him in the crate when I'm home. So, at night, when all the others are in my room, I'll go out and spend time with him. Since boiling, horrible summer is over, I am now able to open the front door (there is a screen door), and we sit or stand there, "watching tv" (as I call it), while I pet him and talk to him. Or I'll go over to the twin bed that is the dog's bed, and sit on it and do the shake (endlessly - as soon as he finally learned it, I threw him a ticker tape parade because it took him 2 1/2 years of my constant attempts before he did it - so now when he's trying to suck up, he'll throw that paw up for me to shake - over and over and over and over...) Or I'll have him do the simple stuff and toss baby carrots in his mouth, telling him how good he is.
As for having him around like I did with him and Whitey and me - I think maybe that muzzle would be good for that, too. Then I don't have to be even remotely anxious, which I know animals can feel, and can continue to reward him for paying attention to me, not the cat.
I've also noticed, since this separation thing, he looks at me constantly. That's not something he's done, but I've been working on him for years to focus. He will focus only for a little while, but now, he's focusing constantly. It makes sense. There was a trainer who said to crate your dog, and only let him out to go to the bathroom. I was to ignore him the entire time - meaning, don't look at him, don't talk to him, only acknowledge his presence long enough to put the leash on him for bathroom time, and to throw his meal in his crate. I tried that but only lasted 3 days at the longest because I felt. so. bad. about it. And yet, now that he doesn't get to be with everyone, now that he doesn't get to be with me like he wants to, and now that we are doing one on one time, no other pets around - turns out, he's focused on me like I've wanted him to be. Guess that trainer was on to something.
Prey drive - it actually didn't take 9 years to come out, it just never came out on the cats. When I lived in the Everglades, those idiots got out. I had a sliding glass door, and I was outside doing some work. I guess I must have left it open just the tiniest bit when my Mensa dog, the girl, slid it open, and they both went galavanting down the street, not a care in the world. I had no idea they were even out. I was right there, in the yard! When I eventually saw them running down the street back towards me, the boy had a neighbor's Peking duck in his fricken mouth. I wanted to die. That neighbor raised them from chick hood. They reached me, I roared at the boy to "drop it", he did, the duck stood up, shook it off, and then waddled back down the road towards home. My boy was delighted with what he had done - until I turned my attention back to him after seeing that the duck was okay.
In that backyard in Maine, he loved to chase after things that I threw, but he didn't like bringing them back. He chased them, and then he would clamp down on it and shake it - just like he did the cat. Stuffing, legs, arms, heads (of the toy) would be flying around. He and his sister used to chase each other in that big back yard. She was way more Border Collie than he was - she was like Pepe LePue, and he was like the cat, in that cartoon. He would run in circles, around and around the huge yard, and she would lie low in the grass, watching, and then she'd cut him off at the pass and get him. This would delight the boy, and he would turn tail and run circles the other way - she's lie down, watch and wait, and then head him off at the pass. And when it was his turn, he'd run right after her, never once thinking about cutting her off, he would just chase and chase and chase. It's always been there - everything on the planet used to distract that boy and he would want to hunt it down, chase it down - our early years in training were very frustrating. Bugs, leaves, dirt - didn't matter, he wanted to chase it and destroy it.
Cats messing with him: I've been paying extra attention to how they act when he's in the crate, since he's in the crate sometimes while I"m here. He didn't used to be in the crate while I was home except to eat - but at those times, the cats were also busy eating. But now, I've discovered that not Fluffy, but "Mama" is the one who messes with the dogs. She has a huge attitude towards them - like she's standing up to them declaring that she's not afraid of them. The girl still gets to be out, and I noticed that Mama would stand right in front of the girl, daring her to try something. And then I noticed that Mama would stand right outside of the boy's crate and stare at him, as if to mock him. Not that animals mock each other, but there was definitely some type of communication going on between them (not verbal), and it seemed pretty clear that she was laughing at him - in whatever way it is that animals laugh at each other - teasing, sneering, mocking. She was basically being a right jerk about the whole thing. So now I'm wondering - does she do that the entire time that I'm gone? What a fricken witch. I mean, there is something humorous about that, but also not because I wonder if her "mocking" him while I've been gone has caused any of this. Maybe it hasn't, but what a little snot she is towards them. And it makes sense now why my girl went from not minding the cats to just now tolerating them - but moves away any time they come near, or she will hide her face if they in the small hallway to my bedroom - because the girl wants to come into my bedroom, but there's Mama, acting like some school bully, standing in her way, and staring her down. Fluffy doesn't have a thing to do with the dogs - but Mama apparently does.
Euthanize: I will try everything else, first, before I ever give that another thought. I did call around to a few vets to see how much it would cost, and each time I hung up, I went out to look at the boy, and it felt like I got slugged in the gut. I don't think I can do that unless I have absolutely no other alternative. Right now, I have some alternatives. I really am going to try the muzzle thing - see if I can find one he can't thrash off of him - and go from there. He won't like it, but dogs get used to muzzles. He wouldn't be the first one to wear one - and it wouldn't be all day long. I would rather try that, or try to rehome, or continue with this separating thing unless there are signs that it's harming him by keeping him away from everyone - which I realize could happen, and is a big reason I'm spending way more time with him, one on one.
I have plans, I have the work I have now, but what I've learned in life is that things constantly change, whether I want them to or not, whether I'm ready for them to change or not. So, I would not say that I would "never" do it - but right now, I'd like to see what I can try, see how it works, and go from there.
I think I covered everything that you all said. I feel better now knowing that it would have been obvious if he had killed Rani or even Caspies, and the muzzle idea is actually making me feel like there is hope that we can work this all out. I just have to find one he can't destroy, because he even destroys those "indestructible" toys.
Last edited by Three Wolves In Snow; 09-10-2019 at 12:27 PM..
Hmmm as a non dog owner (now, but was formerly) . And someone who firmly believes in dogs biting others unprovoked. Example: My father has a pair of nasty little biters that have a bad habit of biting if you just stroll by. (This is why he doesn't get to see the grandkids often because he makes excuses up for the dogs, but I digress!)
Your dog instinctively was trying to kill the cat. That's what they do. My lab used to fetch up pheasant or ducks and give them a shake to finish them off. What's not clear here? If you value your other pets as children then the dog needs to go.
If your dogs are following you around the house every time you make a move, it could be they aren't getting enough free time outside? Or Q T with you?
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Luckily he is just trying to get a window seat and doesn't hurt them or I would have considered rehoming him myself while he was still young. BTW, I have no idea why the cats won't use their claws on him and it just adds to the problem. 
