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In 2008 and 2009, I was living in the Everglades and rescued a whole bunch of cats. Most of them were adopted out with help from a rescue in the area. I kept a few.
In 2010, some jerk wad dumped 3 puppies into traffic in Miami. One was hit and killed, and the other 2 pups came home with me. They were 3 months old at the time, (according to the vet).
Since then, my dogs and my cats have lived together without issues. Sometimes the sibling dogs would get into a tussle, but I alleviated that by keeping the boy behind a baby gate while I was gone, in one place I lived, and now he has a huge crate that he goes into when I'm gone at this place.
But I've never seen him attack my cats.
Yesterday, I came home from doing some work. I unhooked the door to the boy dog's crate. My cat, Daniel Striped Tiger (also known as 'Fluffy') was sitting on the living room floor, not even looking at the dog. He was just sitting there licking his arm, like cats do. I had just turned to take a jacket off, when I heard my dog go after my cat, not 2 feet away from me.
He literally clamped down on the back of his neck and started shaking him like he does stuffed toys I used to give him - used to. I don't give him stuffed toys anymore, and haven't for a long time because he eviscerates them in minutes after bringing them home, and then he tries to eat the stuffing. So, he hasn't had a stuffed toy in years. But he treated my cat like a stuffed toy - right in front of me, with no shame whatsoever.
Then I started to think of the sudden and fast downfall of my cat Rani and my cat Caspies who have since died. With Caspies, the vet could find no reason for my cat to be ill - which I thought he was ill. With Rani, I wondered if she had been attacked by another cat, because she didn't want anything to do with any of them, and she never went around the dogs anyway. I had them both checked out, and there were no wounds of any sort, no broken bones, nothing. But now I'm wondering - did he kill them, and we missed it somehow?
Anyway, what I know for sure is what I saw happen, right in front of me yesterday, like I said not even 2 feet from me.
I looked up information on the internet and found several stories from people who had dogs and cats that got along, or at least tolerated each other for years, and then suddenly, their dog attacks their cat or kills their cat.
Yes, my boy has a high prey drive, but again, I've had him for 9 years and never seen him go after one of the cats.
And, he's only 9. I don't think that's old in dog years, but I could be wrong. He seems just as healthy as always. He eats with the same excitement, he still plays when he's outside, he's still eager to please me, and usually shows his "submission" (I guess) to me by offering me his paw for a shake (which took 2 years for him to finally learn), and following me around the house, etc.
The absolute only thing that has changed in recent months is that I had my bedroom closed off to all pets except Whitey (my cat) because he was healing from surgery. But that has nothing to do with the other pets. None of them were allowed in. And he didn't attack Whitey, he attacked a cat that doesn't do anything to him. Fluffy minds his own business, never messes with the dogs, never tries to cuddle up to them, never hisses at them, never does anything. They just live together.
Why would this happen?
Now I can't trust my boy. I've got all the other pets in my room now since Whitey is healed and I can let them in, and the boy is out in the living room. The only other alternative is to keep him in his crate all day long which I don't think is the proper thing to do. He is in there when I'm out of the house, every time I'm out of the house, but wasn't when I was home - and until yesterday, that I know for a fact, he's never done that to any of the cats. (Unless he did do that to Caspies and Rani - I don't know.)
Why would this happen out of the blue for no reason? Again, Fluffy did not instigate him in any way. Fluffy wasn't staring at the boy, wasn't even paying attention to the boy. Wasn't in the boy dog's things, etc.
I feel like I should know the answer, but I just don't know why this happened, when it has never happened before - and the fact that he did it right in front of me - I don't even know what to say about that.
Yes, he gets exercise, yes he gets brain stimulation, yes he gets attention, no the cat didn't provoke him - literally did not provoke him at all, yes, I understand about packs, yes he gets fed last every day, yes I've let my dogs know that the cats are above them - and then suddenly, he treats one of my cats like a stuffed toy while I'm standing right there.
I understand that someone is going to say "take him to the vet, see if there's something wrong with him", I get that, and I will be doing just that, but I also want to know if there's any other reason that he did what he did that I'm not aware of.
Last edited by Three Wolves In Snow; 09-07-2019 at 06:31 PM..
Sadly, I can offer no answer, it is also a puzzle to me. Others with more experience can offer up their ideals. I would like to know what breed(s) you suspect the dog to be?
When I got Wolfie almost two years ago, it had been my wifes' turn to pick a dog. She was dead set on a German Shepard. Then she started doing in-depth information on the breed, and had read of them just out-of-nowhere...killing a familiar cat. So she let me pick out another Great pyrenees.
*I am using German Shepards as an example peeps, there are other breeds known to attack cats, I'm not singling them out*
How is Daniel Striped Tiger?
imho, I would find that dog another home, one without cats. I would never keep an animal that attacks another member of its' family. Sorry that may be harsh to you, and I've read of your stories in the Glades, you are a very considerate and kind soul, but myself; I'd just be too afraid for my other pets.
Last edited by TerraDown; 09-07-2019 at 06:43 PM..
Sadly, I can offer no answer, it is also a puzzle to me. Others with more experience can offfer up their ideals. I would like to know what breed(s) you suspect the dog to be?
When I got Wolfie almost two years ago, it had been my wifes' turn to pick a dog. She was dead set on a German Shepard. Then she started doing in-depth information on the breed, and had read of them just out-of-nowhere...killing a familiar cat. So she let me pick out another Great pyrenees.
How is Daniel Striped Tiger? imho, I would find that dog another home, one without cats. I would never keep an animal that attacks another member of its' family. Sorry that may be harsh to you, and I've read of your stories in the Glades, you are a very considerate and kind soul, but myself; I'd just be too afraid for my other pets.
He was definitely upset. I felt all over him, have monitored him all last night and today when I've been home, he ate last night like he was a starving Jackal in the Serengeti, like he does every day, and he's been very active, even knocking over my desk last night at 2am and waking me up with the crashing noise - so, he's been normal after he spent about an hour under the bed yesterday after the attack. He's going to the vet, too, just to be safe, but he's not acting like anything happened after that hour under the bed.
When I rescued the pups, I took them to the vet the following day or the day after. The vet told me that they were about 3-4 months old, and that they were a mix between Black Labrador and Border Collie. And I've long known he has a very high prey drive - but it never manifested in attacking the cats.
As for sibling rivalry, that is something I had to learn about very early on - that sibling dogs will get into fights. I learned from a neighbor that while I was at work, she would walk by my house and sometimes hear them going at each other. That's when I started separating them while I was away. The boy has also been crate trained, and when I lived in the Glades, the dogs both had crates that they stayed in while I worked, and when they ate. The boy eats in his crate. The cats know they are not allowed in the crates - they've all been trained of that a long time ago.
I know I can't trust him - and I have 3 options that I know about right now until/unless someone comes along with an idea of why he did what he did:
1) Rehome - almost impossible because he has fear aggression with other dogs. It can be a nightmare to take him out for walks sometimes because of the fact that so many people do not have their dogs contained in any way. This is not just where I live, but everywhere I have lived. I wrote about how we were put into the street during one walk in Maine in my neighborhood because a Golden Retriever was not in any way contained in his yard, and apparently decided that the sidewalk was also his property when we walked by. Around here, a loose dog sighting has happened so many times, that I have to take the boy on frequent short outings instead of 1 or 2 long ones. It's been that way for 3 years. I can't take him to a dog park - he loses his mind.
2) Keep him and let him live out the rest of his years, however long they may be, and keep the other pets in my bedroom when I'm here, and out in the rest of the house when I"m gone and the boy is in his crate. I can be out for hours at a time - but I don't know if this is good, either, because as much as thecats want to be in my room, they also want to be out in the other parts of the house, too. I don't know.
3) Euthanize. I really don't want to have to do that, because I feel like I'm doing something wrong, or I have missed something, or I have failed him somehow. I've been of the school of thought that says a dog never attacks unprovoked - and I still think that's true - but what happened yesterday looked unprovoked. The cat wasn't doing anything to him, and he didn't give any kind of warning. I know dog language. There was no warning. He didn't even growl, bark, anything. He just treated the cat like a stuffed toy out of nowhere. But, I'm the human - and even those of us who know a fair amount about dogs can still be that "stoopid hooman" who doesn't know enough, and what would cause this. I have thought about it - and I don't know the answer. I have to protect my other pets - at the same time, do I not also have the obligation to protect him? So, I've been trying to find out how I failed this dog. I'm at a loss, so here I am.
My dogs get excited when I arrive home and there is a bunch of rough and tumble and one of the things that happens is that the dogs will grab up toys and toss them around. It's something to do with all of the extra energy that needs an outlet.
I suspect that your cat had the misfortune to have an excited dog pick him up and treat him like a toy.
I suggest that you figure out a way to keep dogs and cats separated when you are not home. It was not really an attack, but a cat is too small to play rough with a big dog and the cat can get badly hurt, even if the damage is unintentional.
My dogs get excited when I arrive home and there is a bunch of rough and tumble and one of the things that happens is that the dogs will grab up toys and toss them around. It's something to do with all of the extra energy that needs an outlet.
I suspect that your cat had the misfortune to have an excited dog pick him up and treat him like a toy.
I suggest that you figure out a way to keep dogs and cats separated when you are not home. It was not really an attack, but a cat is too small to play rough with a big dog and the cat can get badly hurt, even if the damage is unintentional.
They are separated when I'm not home. This happened right when I got home, and he did it right in front of me.
Interesting theory about displacement. What happened yesterday, as far as me getting home and letting dogs out of crates, has happened many times in their lives, and they've never mistaken one of the cats for a play toy. But let's say that your theory is correct: Why now? Why this time out of the hundreds of times I have walked in the door, unlatched their crates, and we've gone on with our evening, uneventfully?
Why Now doesn't matter. Treat this as he Will kill next time.
Steps you can take: Don't let him out of his crate till ALL other pets are Not in the room. Do put him on leash when you take him out of the crate. Do take him outside & play with him to wear down both the excitement of you returning home & him being in a crate.
Ask the vet about Tumor or even doggie dementia. Also check into Springer Rage!
What happened to the dog when this happened? Did you do anything to correct him & what? Did he just Stop & act confused?
I think it can just happen when you least expect it. It has to do with the high prey drive you mentioned that can kick in for "whatever" reason IMO.
Below is a statement from the Jack Russell Terrier Breed Club (a VERY high prey drive breed as an example) regarding cats and JRT's. Several testimonials below it are from owners who raised their JRT's from puppies with cats and still had problems they didn't see coming after many years of peaceful coexistence.
I think it's one of those things where no matter how many times you hear from people that their high prey drive breed is "great" with cats, it's better to be safe than sorry. I have cats too and this is an important consideration for me also.
I totally believe you that your dog never acted like this before. The testimonials say the same thing. Hopefully just supervising more and being prepared will help you.
There is also a difference between hunting breeds (mentioned in article) and prey drive. Beagles and Bassets make every top 10 list for best dogs to live with cats. They are in the top 3 on the AKC site. Scent hounds are not considered high prey drive. I still separated my beagle puppy from my cats and spent months on deterring chasing. He is almost 2 yrs now and I still won't leave him alone with the cats yet. He won't "shake" them but could still hurt them accidently as he is so rambunctious and two of my cats are very small.
I think it can just happen when you least expect it. It has to do with the high prey drive you mentioned that can kick in for "whatever" reason IMO.
Below is a statement from the Jack Russell Terrier Breed Club (a VERY high prey drive breed as an example) regarding cats and JRT's. Several testimonials below it are from owners who raised their JRT's from puppies with cats and still had problems they didn't see coming after many years of peaceful coexistence.
I think it's one of those things where no matter how many times you hear from people that their high prey drive breed is "great" with cats, it's better to be safe than sorry. I have cats too and this is an important consideration for me also.
I totally believe you that your dog never acted like this before. The testimonials say the same thing. Hopefully just supervising more and being prepared will help you.
There is also a difference between hunting breeds (mentioned in article) and prey drive. Beagles and Bassets make every top 10 list for best dogs to live with cats. They are in the top 3 on the AKC site. Scent hounds are not considered high prey drive. I still separated my beagle puppy from my cats and spent months on deterring chasing. He is almost 2 yrs now and I still won't leave him alone with the cats yet. He won't "shake" them but could still hurt them accidently as he is so rambunctious and two of my cats are very small.
Thank you for that link. In that story, their dog had also been around the cat for 9 years without issue until the day it was an issue. Same scenario, pretty much: have high places for cats to go, have had to put the boy behind a baby gate or in a crate while I was gone not just for the cats, but to prevent the sibling rivalry, but in my case, it wasn't because he hadn't been in his crate while I was gone, it was right when I got home, and I unlatched his crate so he could push the door open, and I walked another 2 steps past it to take my jacket off - the cat in that 2 foot difference between me and the dog. But, there was plenty of room for my dog to go around, pass by the cat, not need to go around the cat...but just like them, 9 years of nothing, then suddenly, attack. It only lasted long enough for me to turn around and see, then yell at him to back off. Cat fled, I picked him up, put him in my bedroom, he went under the bed, and the boy dog went right back in his crate.
Maybe it's really that simple. It just can happen with dogs that have a high prey drive. He most definitely has one.
Last night, I put all the other pets in my room, he got the entire living area and kitchen to himself (which is also pet proofed). Because it was finally not a boiling hot day yesterday and last night, I kept the front door open (have a heavy metal screen door that you can't cut through with a box cutter), and let him "watch tv" all night if he wanted to. If anyone even tried to come to the door, there would have been so much racket and threats from my boy dog that they would either a) not even bother trying to come in, or b) make such a huge commotion trying to fight off the dog that everyone would know someone was trying to break in, so I wasn't worried about that. Which is yet another reason I don't want to have to resort to a euthanize - I just don't feel that's the answer.
Anyway, this morning, they all wanted out of the bedroom. At first, I thought I'd have to put the boy in his crate, and I didn't think that was fair, so I decided everyone else would go out, and he would come in.
But Whitey, who was in that room with just me for a good couple of months while he healed from his surgeries, decided that he didn't really want to be out, afterall. I made him stay out for about an hour, because he needs to get back to living in the rest of the house, but I decided to let him back in the room.
What to do with the boy?
I have resorted back to training 101. He's in the room. Whitey is also in the room. All others are out in the living area. The boy is on a short training leash. When I get up to do something, he comes along. Wherever I go in the house, he comes with me, leashed on that training leash.
When Whitey was flopped on his side on the bed, touching just the end of the boy's paw, I watched that boy like a hawk to read his body language. He just looked at me the entire time instead of paying attention to the cat. I praised him for that. I would then pet Whitey, then put my hand up to the boy's nose to take in the scent of the cat. And then I'd pet him. I then petted the cat for awhile to see if the boy would even look at the cat, and he'd start to, but then would whip his head back up to look at me and stare at me. He got petted for that.
I will never leave him alone unattended in the house with the cats. I will have to keep them separate even if I'm here. Whitey doesn't usually play with anyone but me. Before his surgeries, he would always flop on his side on the floor whenever the boy walked near him, and the worst the boy ever did was sniff him a few times, but the boy never took much of an interest in Whitey.
I'm still going to put him in the crate at some point each day even if I'm here, because I'd like to relax, and I can't when Whitey is in the room, as well, even if I have the boy on a short training leash. I have to watch, every movement. If I want to take a nap, he's going in the crate. If I want to do some work, where I need to concentrate, he's going in the crate. If I just want to zone out and play a game, he's going in the crate. Only when I can give my full attention to both of them, and monitor them, will he be in my bedroom with Whitey and me.
He will never have access to the others because the others are not as calm as Whitey. Whitey likes to sit on the window sill and look outside pretty much all day long. The others like to climb all over my furniture, and like to lie next to me on the bed - and are always changing their minds which one they want to do - and I do not have that type of energy to monitor all of them at the same time.
He also no longer will have access to his sister. He will be able to see her when I go from one room to another while he's on the leash and has to follow me, but she gets told to "back" when she wants to come up to greet him.
If I could find him a home who would take on a 9 year old fear of other dogs aggressive dog, and who apparently does have an issue with cats because of his high prey drive - then absolutely I would do it. I'm just not sure that would be very easy to find - most people don't want to put in the kind of work I have had to do for 9 years on this dog - even before he attacked Fluffy yesterday.
He's been a LOT of work - but he's also been teaching me a whole lot about dogs that I never knew before. It's been frustrating, it's been exhausting, it's been expensive (trainers), and it's had its rewards and education.
I will say, after he goes, I'm not getting another dog for a long, long time. I'm very tired. The girl dog is super easy, probably the best dog on the planet. She's friendly, playful, loves everyone, loves other dogs, gets excited over the simplest of things - everything about life is super fun for her.
Her brother - so. much. work. And clearly not going to give me rest to the day he passes.
Last edited by Three Wolves In Snow; 09-08-2019 at 11:47 AM..
Why Now doesn't matter. Treat this as he Will kill next time.
Steps you can take: Don't let him out of his crate till ALL other pets are Not in the room. Do put him on leash when you take him out of the crate. Do take him outside & play with him to wear down both the excitement of you returning home & him being in a crate.
Ask the vet about Tumor or even doggie dementia. Also check into Springer Rage!
What happened to the dog when this happened? Did you do anything to correct him & what? Did he just Stop & act confused?
That is exactly the mindset I have right now - were he to get another chance, he could kill. And for all I know, he may have actually killed Rani and we just didn't see anything to indicate it. She was perfectly fine, then all of a sudden, she wasn't, and very shortly after that, she was dead. There was no dang reason for it, and I always wondered if something happened, but I thought maybe she got in a fight with one of the other cats because she didn't like other cats except Serenity (who has passed on after 17 1/2 years with me). But now I'm wondering - was it the boy?
No, I'm not letting him out without all others already in my bedroom, or they come out to the living area, and then I take him out, and make him walk right into that training leash, and we either go outside, or I take him straight into the bedroom. It's a very short training leash, he doesn't get to do squat if I don't want him to, with that leash on.
I explained above what happened, but I'll say it again: I walked in the door, put some things down, walked to his crate, unlatched it so that he could push the door open to come out, walked literally only 2 steps past it, was taking off my jacket, and then I heard commotion. I whipped around, saw what he was doing, yelled at him "HEY! Back off!!", he let go of the cat, the cat fled, I put the dog back in his crate, went and got the cat, put cat in bedroom, he ran under the bed, closed the bedroom door, went back out to the crate - and even though I know it was beyond the 2-3 seconds when you have your opportunity to say what you need to say, I still let him have it because I was p*$$ed. I told him, not yelling but very sternly, "If you ever touch another animal in this house, I will kill you myself!" (I wouldn't, of course, well, I mean euthanasia would be me killing him, but I wouldn't actually touch him myself to kill him...I was just threatening because I was so angry at his actions), then I got all of the pets and put them in my bedroom, and completely ignored him for quite some time last night.
I paid him no attention at all until it was time to take him out to conduct his business for the night, and then ordered him on the twin bed that they have for their doggie bed, left the front door open, informed him that if anything even tried to come in the house with 2 legs or 8 legs, he was to destroy it, and then walked back into my bedroom and ignored him the rest of the night.
He knows he's in trouble - but that doesn't mean jack squat if he did what he did because of his high prey drive. When that kicks in, I am not worth more than whatever he's after. That, I know, is a failing. Certainly not for my lack of trying. I've paid a whole lot of money for personal trainers - one on one, just me and the dog and the trainer - to come by and help me learn how to control this out of control dog.
He has come a long way, and I've worked on him a lot. So much. So, so much work. And in many things, I am worth more to him than the other things, but when he gets focused on going after something, I'm not. I've tried several different methods - that high prey drive wins every time. I know I have failed there. It's the reason I said I didn't feel euthanizing was the answer because I've never been able to master that - which is my failure, not his.
We have an appointment with the vet. I have to wait a week for that appointment because this clinic is so busy, and it's not "an emergency" (like it was with my cat, Whitey when he was blocked). Even then, this new way of living in this house is how it has to be. I mean, he's obviously getting old, he's got his gray furs like an old man...but unless the vet tells me he has something that is causing this - this is our new lifestyle. If he does have something - as callous as this sounds, I don't think that I'll be plunking the money down that I did for Whitey. Whitey is young. This dog is older - and even though this new arrangement is safer for everyone, I also think it's not a very nice way to live.
Great reaction. Quick to let him know you mean business & why. So many people do nothing for a few second by then the dog no clue why the being corrected...
Sounds like your boy is a BULLY! Had the same problem between a pair of cats. Lady gave both to my son. After a month of him terrorizing his sister I gave Him away. She stopped hiding Stopped hissing at everything that moved. She started being a lot friendlier eating & drinking without fear. Playing well acting like any well adjusted cat should. I ran into the person that he go them from she cussed me for 10 mins in the middle of the grocery store about separating them. Then I in a Firm voice told her the changes in the Female cat. I also told her how happy the boy was being the only cat in his new home. then I turned & walked away.
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