Legion is losing his family jewels. (border collie, lab, aggressive, skin)
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I'm so against castrating a dog as a matter-off-course. But I'm the first to say that sometimes it's necessary.
His obstinate, pushy, disobedient nature has finally worn me down.
Yesterday he hyper-extended my arm while lunging around the back of my mobility scooter to greet another dog who was sitting perfectly still by his masters side. Not aggressively, he just wants to play.
Today he marked the scooter while I was picking up his c*r*a*p.
Because he has PICA I have to take him out to the back yard to go toilet on the lead. If I let him loose he'll gorge on grass, rocks, bark, sticks, anything (& then vomit it up on my bedroom floor in the early hours)
He's torn skin off my hand by racing out the back door from behind because he saw a cat jumping the fence. He's nearly dragged me down a few times by lunging at a lizard or other insect.
It's a wonder that he hasn't aggravated my bulging disc.
After my last dog died, I waited over 10 years before I could even consider getting another dog. I saved for years to be able to set up properly before I got a dog. The mobility scooter cost $1500. Most of the $1000 that was put aside for training was spent on building a paved, covered enclosure so he'd have somewhere safe to eat.
My idea of having him trained as a service dog is now just wishful thinking.
He knows all the basic commands but is only ever 100% obedient if I've got a piece of dried liver in my hand.
At 15mo he's finally worn me down. His only saving grace is that he's got a sweet nature & although protective, hasn't a mean bone in his body.
Every dog that I've owned & trained myself was 100% obedient. After waiting so long for another dog I'm so disappointed. If castration doesn't fix his attitude I'm really not sure what I'll do.
Last edited by Legion777; 12-18-2017 at 04:09 PM..
Legion; I'm not convinced cutting is necessary. Have you read McConnell's "The Other End of the Leash"? It's all about advanced training and communication with dogs. It is the most informative book about the ways we misunderstand and miscommunicate with our dogs that I have seen. Just picked it up a few days ago. I'm learning from it. Even if you have most of the basic concepts she talks about, you stand a good chance of getting gold nuggets of training ideas in the book.
Sounds to me like it may be a solid ticket to help you. The other thing to do is to find and contact a trainer who can help you retrain the problems you describe. It may take more than an ordinary trainer, even one who is really good with normal dogs.
So I am highly recommending it. If you don't want to buy a copy, check with your library - I've borrowed a library copy, but my library had to order it from another library in the system. I'm pretty sure all libraries share their books these days.
15 months is still young and stupid - he's a baby. With herding dogs, I just accept that they will be idiots for the first two years of life. Some sessions with a trainer to establish basic obedience should solve the problem and help you to make the training stick while he's growing. He could very well turn out to be a great service dog. I remember how my first border collie became an entirely different dog between 18 months and 2 years.
But yeah, in your situation he should be neutered. You want a service dog, but how are you going to handle an intact male dog who knows he can circumvent you if a female in heat wanders by?
15 months isn’t very old take him to formal training keep training until he is better. Fixing will help
We have at least 2 very short training sessions a day. Short because he gets fed up after a few minutes. He'll either lay on his side or he tries to jump on me. But as I said, he knows the commands, he just resents being told what to do.
Taking him to formal training is a waste of time. He gets overly excited when he sees other dogs & people. The trainers can't get near him & I was told not to come back until he was 'fixed'.
He knows how to settle himself when overly excited. For e.g., he'll sit with his food right in front of him & will not move until given the command because he knows it's the quickest way to get his food.
When I come home he'll sit for me to greet him because if he doesn't, he knows he'll be ignored. But he wont do the same when a friend visits.
He's finally learnt to sit still for me to put on his harness before a walk or drive in the car, because he knows he'll miss out on his walk or be left behind if he doesn't.
He knows when he's gone too far & has upset me. Since coming home from our walk today he's been perfectly behaved, just laying at my feet.
Legion; I'm not convinced cutting is necessary. Have you read McConnell's "The Other End of the Leash"? It's all about advanced training and communication with dogs. It is the most informative book about the ways we misunderstand and miscommunicate with our dogs that I have seen. Just picked it up a few days ago. I'm learning from it. Even if you have most of the basic concepts she talks about, you stand a good chance of getting gold nuggets of training ideas in the book.
Sounds to me like it may be a solid ticket to help you. The other thing to do is to find and contact a trainer who can help you retrain the problems you describe. It may take more than an ordinary trainer, even one who is really good with normal dogs.
So I am highly recommending it. If you don't want to buy a copy, check with your library - I've borrowed a library copy, but my library had to order it from another library in the system. I'm pretty sure all libraries share their books these days.
Thanks, I'll look into it. (Yes, my library also has an inter-loan system)
As other people can't get near him, I really doubt that another trainer could help (Believe me, I'd love to hand him over to a trainer & say 'Fix him!', lol)
From what I can see it's his willful obstinate nature & over-excitedness that's the issue.
He's been displaying dominant behaviour since 9wo. 'Experts' laughed at this suggestion & assured me that I was misinterpreting as 9wo was 'far too young'. Nuh-uh, it's how he is.
Anyway, I'll look into that book & see if I can get a copy.
15 months is still young and stupid - he's a baby. With herding dogs, I just accept that they will be idiots for the first two years of life. Some sessions with a trainer to establish basic obedience should solve the problem and help you to make the training stick while he's growing. He could very well turn out to be a great service dog. I remember how my first border collie became an entirely different dog between 18 months and 2 years.
But yeah, in your situation he should be neutered. You want a service dog, but how are you going to handle an intact male dog who knows he can circumvent you if a female in heat wanders by?
So I keep being told. 'Bigger breeds are slower to mature'. Hadn't heard that about herding dogs though. (I had a kelpie cross when I was a teenager, who was incredibly intelligent & extremely obedient by 3mo, who I'd taught all sorts of tricks. Her herding instincts & need to work were so strong that she ended up at a friends small farm)
I was only talking to the owner of a 15mo chocolate Lab y'day, who has exactly the same issue. She's also at her wits end.
But I do see improvement as he gets older. So on one hand I can hope he grows out of it or on the other, I've been warned that if I wait too long to have him castrated, certain behaviours can become entrenched.
Apart from one 18mo dog that I bought already trained, I've trained 4 dogs by myself without any problems. They were all extremely obedient. And I've helped many others to train their dogs over the years.
Legion knows sit, stay, drop, come, leave it & will retrieve particular toys by name. So how will sessions with another trainer help? Assuming that he'd actually settle for someone else?
He just thinks it's one big game until I roar at him. Even then, that doesn't always work.
The plan was before I got him, was to send him to my trainers for a week but most of that money was spent on the enclosure.
He gets in certain moods where he'll come at me with a crazed look in his eye, tongue hanging out of the side of his mouth & usually 'cracking a pinkie', where he's just impossible, trying to get in my lap & slobbering & licking any exposed skin.
But strangely, when I get his leash & threaten him with a 'time-out', he'll usually lay down & go to sleep.
We have at least 2 very short training sessions a day. Short because he gets fed up after a few minutes. He'll either lay on his side or he tries to jump on me. But as I said, he knows the commands, he just resents being told what to do.
Taking him to formal training is a waste of time. He gets overly excited when he sees other dogs & people. The trainers can't get near him & I was told not to come back until he was 'fixed'.
. . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion777
So I keep being told. 'Bigger breeds are slower to mature'. Hadn't heard that about herding dogs though. . . . on one hand I can hope he grows out of it or on the other, I've been warned that if I wait too long to have him castrated, certain behaviours can become entrenched.
. . .
I'm going to add some thoughts based on the comments above, but first I want to stress - wait a couple of weeks. Get the book, and see if you don't think of some new possibilities before you get to page 100. I'm hoping it will change how you are seeing this situation, and it may change your entire relationship with Legion.
Second, don't ever take Legion back to that trainer who said "get him fixed", whether you neuter Legion or not. IMHO, that training class is not worth YOUR time, and certainly not with this dog. Legion is communicating - he has motivations - as you know. It is hitting those motivations in the right way that is going to make the difference. The trainer who said "get him fixed" did not know how, or was not prepared to deal with the particular issues that Legion, the individual, presents. Maybe that trainer is great with average dogs, in an average setting, but you don't have average, do you! So that is the wrong trainer for Legion. And I don't think I'm reading that situation wrong - but maybe there is something about it I don't know. But my guess is don't try to fix that trainer or training situation. Find a trainer who knows how to work with what you've got. It won't be the dog learning from that trainer, I think. I think it will be you learning how to manage with this dog from that trainer.
Neutering and behavior. Next, if we were talking about male cats, and spraying, I would agree that there are behaviors that will become entrenched. But not dogs. Dogs can be trained not to engage in all of the offensive behaviors you have mentioned, with the possible exception of the exposure of the penis out of the sheath (which is what I think you were alluding to). That's just natural for some dogs. If they aren't jumping up or humping, no big deal, should not be a worry. I've had neutered dogs who were worse about that than intact ones.
Smart herding dogs, AFAIK, seem to have a longer sensitive growing period than most other breeds. Or, you could call it an extended adolescence. Most dogs are pretty much "out of school" by a year and a half, I think. But for the herding breeds that seems to go to about 2.5 yrs. Nothing set in stone there - you CAN teach an old dog new tricks. I've been on a constant learning curve with my dogs, both current and past. Learning didn't stop until they died. But there is that young puppy time when they learn easily and quickly. As they get older, it takes more repetition, and better understanding of the dog.
BTW, your description of Legion as "willful" sounds very much like what I said when I got my current two. As does your description of how Legion responds to training sessions. And what I have learned is that I needed to up my game in training. I needed to do some learning so I could teach them successfully. They're smart - and they think they know when they've got a situation in hand. Often they do, and I am the ignorant one. But sometimes they don't, and then they have to work with me. I started with these two a bit over 2 years ago, when they were 2 yrs, 8 mos old. They just turned 5. I got basic stuff pretty quickly, no problem. I got some desired herding behavior after I'd had them a year, and again, the absolute basic requirements were met in a couple of sessions. But the refinements, like direction control, or a calm gentle walk up? We're still working on that. Chasing rabbits after the herding is done? We're still working on that. Going into the street when cars are present? We're still working on that. Compared to 99% of dogs I see, they are pretty well trained. But obviously they aren't perfect, and we are still working on that. Which all just goes to say the obvious oversimplification: it takes time.
I'm going to add some thoughts based on the comments above, but first I want to stress - wait a couple of weeks. Get the book, and see if you don't think of some new possibilities before you get to page 100. I'm hoping it will change how you are seeing this situation, and it may change your entire relationship with Legion.
Second, don't ever take Legion back to that trainer who said "get him fixed", whether you neuter Legion or not. IMHO, that training class is not worth YOUR time, and certainly not with this dog. Legion is communicating - he has motivations - as you know. It is hitting those motivations in the right way that is going to make the difference. The trainer who said "get him fixed" did not know how, or was not prepared to deal with the particular issues that Legion, the individual, presents. Maybe that trainer is great with average dogs, in an average setting, but you don't have average, do you! So that is the wrong trainer for Legion. And I don't think I'm reading that situation wrong - but maybe there is something about it I don't know. But my guess is don't try to fix that trainer or training situation. Find a trainer who knows how to work with what you've got. It won't be the dog learning from that trainer, I think. I think it will be you learning how to manage with this dog from that trainer.
Neutering and behavior. Next, if we were talking about male cats, and spraying, I would agree that there are behaviors that will become entrenched. But not dogs. Dogs can be trained not to engage in all of the offensive behaviors you have mentioned, with the possible exception of the exposure of the penis out of the sheath (which is what I think you were alluding to). That's just natural for some dogs. If they aren't jumping up or humping, no big deal, should not be a worry. I've had neutered dogs who were worse about that than intact ones.
Smart herding dogs, AFAIK, seem to have a longer sensitive growing period than most other breeds. Or, you could call it an extended adolescence. Most dogs are pretty much "out of school" by a year and a half, I think. But for the herding breeds that seems to go to about 2.5 yrs. Nothing set in stone there - you CAN teach an old dog new tricks. I've been on a constant learning curve with my dogs, both current and past. Learning didn't stop until they died. But there is that young puppy time when they learn easily and quickly. As they get older, it takes more repetition, and better understanding of the dog.
BTW, your description of Legion as "willful" sounds very much like what I said when I got my current two. As does your description of how Legion responds to training sessions. And what I have learned is that I needed to up my game in training. I needed to do some learning so I could teach them successfully. They're smart - and they think they know when they've got a situation in hand. Often they do, and I am the ignorant one. But sometimes they don't, and then they have to work with me. I started with these two a bit over 2 years ago, when they were 2 yrs, 8 mos old. They just turned 5. I got basic stuff pretty quickly, no problem. I got some desired herding behavior after I'd had them a year, and again, the absolute basic requirements were met in a couple of sessions. But the refinements, like direction control, or a calm gentle walk up? We're still working on that. Chasing rabbits after the herding is done? We're still working on that. Going into the street when cars are present? We're still working on that. Compared to 99% of dogs I see, they are pretty well trained. But obviously they aren't perfect, and we are still working on that. Which all just goes to say the obvious oversimplification: it takes time.
Thanks for the advice Hiero.
You have piqued my curiosity & I look forward to reading the book. If my library can't get a copy I'll just buy one as a Christmas present for myself (& Legion).
You're right about the trainer & I had no intention of going back after what he said. My local council runs the dog training. I'm competent at training the basics but have never had to deal with a 'problem child' before. I suspect that the council trainer is not much better.
The trainers from whom I bought my last dog are not what one could call 'people persons' & it's all about the money with them, they're not cheap, but they're brilliant with dogs. (They often take problem dogs that would otherwise be put down. One dog they took in was a neurotic barker. They put him on a long run overlooking their training area to act as a distraction for dogs in training to ignore) But as my funds are low, that's out of the question.
You read 'cracking a pinky' correct. No he doesn't hump. I just take it as a sign of over-excitement.
He knows I'm really grumpy since this morning & has been really quiet since just laying under the table at my feet.
You're advice may well have saved Legions nuts. Thanks again.
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