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I have seen a lot of dogs with bark collars and none of them seem at all traumatized by it. Of course I am used to working dogs that would have been washed out of any program if they were traumatized by such a minor event.
I think you may have hit it on the nose there. I've seen dogs traumatized by much less of an aversive. For example, I worked with a 4 month old rottweiler puppy who would burst her bladder rather than eliminate in front of a human simply because her owners used a stern tone of voice when she went in the house. Different dogs have different reactions. I've spoken to people who have tried shock collars. Some claim to feel hardly anything with it juiced all the way up, and others freaked out with the first slight stim. I'd just rather not risk it.
Once upon a time, before I swore off aversions altogether, I tried using a prong collar to train one of my dogs. She behaved right away - yes, MAAM, she said. But she also shut down, something that most of the dog-owning public would not recognize in their dogs. (Heck, that TV so-called-trainer doesn't recognize it in his dogs!) It took her a couple of days to get over it and become her confident self again. (She's a rottie mix, by the way.)
What type of bark collar did your friend get? The standard MODERN electronic one with varying stim levels or the citronella one that folks who won't correct a dog think is more humane (why, I don't have a clue)?
I know she tried both the citronella and the shock. Not sure which kind, but I know she bought them new so they were modern.
I agree on the spinning comment. You get a high drive herding dog from working lines and they are usually on the edge of OCD in the first place. I would never suggest teaching this behavior to a dog-it is right up there with chasing lasers and tail chasing.
Maybe I didn't explain what I mean by spinning correctly. I teach it as a trick - the dog turns around one time. I haven't seen any dogs who have been taught to spin like this become OCD about it. Dogs who spin as a behavior problem come out of the box doing it - it's not a learned behavior. But since I wouldn't recommend playing with a laser pointer (I HAVE seen dogs get OCD about that), I see your point and understand your concern.
But teaching an alternate to the barking is intriguing. Since the dog once emptied an entire room into the backyard when my husband left the back door open, I may be able to something with her proclivity to carrying things around in her mouth.
Brilliant! If her mouth is full, she can't bark. That's what I mean by no "one-size-fits-all" training for behavior issues. You have to know the individual dog to know what will work best, and may have to try more than one method to get the best results. I'm using this in my Puppy Socials class for one pup who is a little too over-the-top playing bitey-face. She loves to carry things around in her mouth, so I make sure she has tugs and stuffies. This way she runs around and plays without annoying the other pups so much.
I am confused though. In one thread you basically said you should get a cat if you wanted to stop alarm barking and in another you said it was pretty easy to deal with.
Alarm barking is a normal part of what dogs do. My dogs still let me know that neighbors dare to walk by on our street and leaves fall past the window without permission. A couple of barks, I call out "thank you," it's over. That's the kind of thing that one should expect with a dog. It's going on and on and on and on that's not acceptable, and that part is fairly easy to control with behavior modification.
I have used a clicker to resolve this issue in another dog years ago. The approach we used with rewarding at the instant the bark stopped was in the same vein because we verbally marked it before the treat.
There's a subtle difference here. I had a private student whose owner complained that every time she brought the dog outside for a walk, the little stinker barked non-stop. Not AT anything, just in general. And it wasn't the happy, "Whee, life is good!" bark-for-fun. With this dog I stood quietly with a clicker and waited until she took a breath, and clicked the moment of silence. This was actually an amazing case, because it worked in one session. The owner reported that she didn't bark outside any more after about 20 minutes of rewarding moments of silence. Have to admit that breaking habits are usually a lot harder than this!
For your dog, I would try to catch him BEFORE the bark. The key would be in rewiring the thought process of "uh oh, stranger, gotta bark," to "hey, stranger, gotta dance!" :} A stranger approaching and his lack of response to it is what you're rewarding. If he barks first, you lost the moment.
The problem with this approach is consistency and repetition, particularly when there are more critical things to focus on during training days and doing it at home or some parking lot...well you now how dogs just don't generalize all that well.
Understood. All training takes consistency and repetition. That's one of the things that saddens me about the general dog-owning public turning to a shock collar instead of training. It's the "quick fix" mentality. And then I see them later when they have taught their dogs that strangers make bad things happen so they react with aggression.
You apparently are much more savvy than the general dog-owning public. If YOUR dog is showing no ill effects (such as increased instead of decreased anxiety when strangers approach the truck), then I wouldn't string you up for deciding to stay with what seems to work well for you.
Thanks for the replies. Always looking for stuff for the "tool box" and am going to play with the current female on redirecting the barking. Gonna let it go with the male.
interesting fact: like most mammals, bladder emptying in dogs is totally involuntary once the bladder reaches 100% capacity, unless physical trauma or urinary obstruction occurs. its simply not possible for a dog to voluntarily refrain from urination (e.g. out of fear) to the point where its bladder ruptures, no more than its possible for humans to voluntarily hold our breath until we die.
interesting tactic: using ficticious or embellished stories to draw a sensationalized analogy to the use of shock collars.
i dont get why people do this...all it does is call into question one's own credibility, which was already suffering after a pretty impressive display of "inability to see more than one side of a story".
my final word: both shock collars andnon-aversive methods of training work. there is no best method, and it depends on both the dog, the trainer and the circumstance. considering all the options in a calm, balanced and measured way would seem to be the best thing for all concerned, including the dog.
Last edited by kronenborg; 03-26-2010 at 01:04 PM..
interesting fact: like most mammals, bladder emptying in dogs is totally involuntary once the bladder reaches 100% capacity, unless physical trauma or urinary obstruction occurs. its simply not possible for a dog to voluntarily refrain from urination (e.g. out of fear) to the point where its bladder ruptures, no more than its possible for humans to voluntarily hold our breath until we die.
I didn't say her bladder ruptured, nor mean to imply it. I am sorry I didn't word my statement more carefully. She would be in such pain and fear if she had to go and the owners were in sight that she would be shaking. The owners didn't stand there and watch her once they realized what was happening, they went out of her sight so she could eliminate. Made potty training extremely difficult. I would guess that they probably ended up with UTI problems, too.
my final word: both shock collars andnon-aversive methods of training work.
Can't argue with that.
there is no best method, and it depends on both the dog, the trainer and the circumstance.
Can't argue with that, either. However, there are methods that should be avoided. You know, like the way we stopped whipping our kids with sticks in favor of more humane methods once we were enlightened.
See, this is what boggles my mind. You can punch or you can reward. Either way gets a result. Why in the name of the great almighty choose the punch???
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Originally Posted by DfrntDrums
Can't argue with that, either. However, there are methods that should be avoided. You know, like the way we stopped whipping our kids with sticks in favor of more humane methods once we were enlightened.
See, this is what boggles my mind. You can punch or you can reward. Either way gets a result. Why in the name of the great almighty choose the punch???
To the bolded portion: sometimes i question the validity of the assumption that kids are better off without corporal punishment, but that's neither here nor there...
nor did i mean to imply he had. but you have to admit, its a pretty severe analogy, and just the kind of emotive stuff that seems to regularly surface in discussions about shock collars.
There is a long history of people who use them being attacked for their views on e-collars. Why add to the emotion level? This thread has been one of the more tame with actual discussion occuring.
There is a long history of people who use them being attacked for their views on e-collars. Why add to the emotion level? This thread has been one of the more tame with actual discussion occuring.
I agree and we want to keep it that way. Everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as you keep it civil.
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