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Jim absolutely cannot understand this concept. Im sure if you checked the bottom line, the owners of In N' Out are simply taking a little out of their profit margin to stay price competitive with the McDonalds down the street.
Since they are price competitive on a fairly substitutable good, they are likely able to gain more business by food quality and customer service.
Jim never took any basic business courses, but Im sure even he can understand the concept that even at a lower profit per customer, the same gross profit can be achieved as someone with a higher profit per customer.
Gee we are not doing any cherry picking here are we? In N Out happens to be a very successful business model. Restaurant profitability is directly related to volume. In N Out can afford to pay more because they do enough volume to keep profit margins in line with what they pay. This is not the case for the independent mom and pop restaurant who is struggling and who do not have the benefits of million dollar marketing campaigns. And yes I have taken business courses, although the real education of business is not in a class room, it is making payroll. The fact still remains that minimum wage is counter productive. There is no evidence whatsoever that lowering the minimum wage would lower wages overall. What it would do is allow micro sized businesses and start up businesses to survive providing additional jobs to the work force and providing jobs to the entry level workers who have the most problem breaking into the workforce. Minimum wage is just another feel good, ill conceived liberal idea that sounds great to people who do not really understand the results and ramifications of their business killing regulations.
This is not the case for the independent mom and pop restaurant who is struggling and who do not have the benefits of million dollar marketing campaigns.
Any restaurant that is struggling is going to find it hard to pay for their labor as well as just about everything else, but so what? But there are plenty of mom and pop restaurants that are very successful and many are more so "mom and pop and the kids and grandma too" restaurants. That is they are family businesses and the profits are shared.
Many businesses pay minimum wage out of short sightedness, they aren't looking at the "big picture". You may get more value for your money out of your employees by paying them $12/hour vs minimum wage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom
There is no evidence whatsoever that lowering the minimum wage would lower wages overall.
Then why do it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom
What it would do is allow micro sized businesses and start up businesses to survive providing additional jobs to the work force and providing jobs to the entry level workers who have the most problem breaking into the workforce.
You yap all day about "real world experience", yet you seem to have none in this area. Have you ever seen a sweat shop in the USA? I can assure they do exist, you just need to go to the manufacturing districts of our major cities (LA, NYC, etc). You are just ignoring the reason these laws were created in the first place, namely employer exploitation. If you removed the minimum wage laws (and laws governing over-time, etc) thousands of sweat shops would legally be allowed to exist in the USA.
If the goal is to make the USA a 3rd world nation then your idea is a good one, otherwise its just foolish and based on fantasy-land thinking.
You yap all day about "real world experience", yet you seem to have none in this area. Have you ever seen a sweat shop in the USA? I can assure they do exist, you just need to go to the manufacturing districts of our major cities (LA, NYC, etc). You are just ignoring the reason these laws were created in the first place, namely employer exploitation. If you removed the minimum wage laws (and laws governing over-time, etc) thousands of sweat shops would legally be allowed to exist in the USA.
If the goal is to make the USA a 3rd world nation then your idea is a good one, otherwise its just foolish and based on fantasy-land thinking.
Gees, get off your soap box. If people are willing to work at below what is now minimum wage, then 3rd world economic conditions already exist. Removing minimum wage does not alter the supply demand labor equation. Your own admission that sweat shops exist is an admission that minimum wage is ineffective in preventing exploitation. The best way to prevent exportation is to expand the employment base and give people more options on where to work. Look around at all the empty storefronts in every town in America; do you think they are empty because business is easy? Those storefronts are empty because business owners were unable to stay in business. A huge part of that due to government regulation and taxation.
If people are willing to work at below what is now minimum wage, then 3rd world economic conditions already exist.
They do in some areas, the question is whether you want those areas to expand into your backyard or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom
Your own admission that sweat shops exist is an admission that minimum wage is ineffective in preventing exploitation.
No regulations are perfect. State regulators are not notified the minute someone creates an illegal business, rather they discover them from reports and complaints from employees, etc. Once discovered they are shut-down, if the labor laws did not exist there would be a lot more of them.
The minimum wage laws (among others) have been successful in limiting exploitation. Do you think that the USA is magically a first-world nation or perhaps it has something to do with our laws and regulations? Just perhaps..
Regardless, you are barking up the wrong tree which shows you don't know about the labor laws. You are just repeating the lines that you've been spoon fed by corporate interests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom
The best way to prevent exportation is to expand the employment base and give people more options on where to work.
This won't prevent an exploitation environment. The problem is that low-skill workers are highly replaceable and as a result the employers have the upper hand. If you actually bothered to read about this you'd find that today's labor laws, unionization, etc were in response to gross exploitation of lower skilled workers when the economy started to become industrialized. It had nothing to do with some "liberal ideas", these things all happened before today's ridiculous liberal vs conservative nonsense.
I would like to remind you that the fair labor standard act was signed into law in 1938 and not only did the economy grow very well after its implementation but the standard of living of average Americans also went up. I'm sorry that reality conflicts with what you want to believe.
Also, you get empty store-fronts for numerous reasons. There is a shopping center here that is pretty much dead, why? Because someone built a new and much nicer one up the street. Often its the result of population decay as can be seen in the rust-belt. If your city/town is slowly declining in population then obviously businesses will slowly close due to the decline in demand. These are the sorts of things that happen in free-markets, you can't force people to live in some city/town, you can't force them to shop at the old crusty center instead of the new shiny one, etc.
If you really believe government wage regulation is the right thing then why not make the minimum wage a real living wage, say $20hr. Or better yet make it mandatory for every buisness owner to file complete profit and loss statements along with their income tax and have govenment decide what you must pay your employees. We could pass laws making it illegal for any buisness owner to make more than 3X what their lowest paid emoloyee makes. Would you support that kind of reform?
If you really believe government wage regulation is the right thing then why not make the minimum wage a real living wage, say $20hr.
Adjusting the wage too quickly will have adverse effects on the economy. The minimum wage should have being gradually brought up based on inflation all along, but there were huge gaps where it was left to erode.
If you really believe government wage regulation is the right thing then why not make the minimum wage a real living wage, say $20hr.
Because it would only be a "real living wage" temporarily. The point of the minimum wage laws is to have a bare minimum to prevent employer abuse, not to force businesses to pay some sort of "living wage".
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom
Would you support that kind of reform?
Nope, so long as employers are not exploiting their employees they should be able to pay them whatever they want.
Wow you all sound like a bunch of cry babies. Everyone knows that increases in the minimum wage causes increases in unemployment-- its not a debate-- its fact. Here is some evidence:
Look at the states with higher than the federally mandated minimum wage... see a trend here? Yes, its those states that are in the economic dumps... california, florida...etc.
Now lets look at a study that was done in Washington and Oregon:
Those States have higher unemployment rate because of other factors like: a poorly educated work force, a large immigrant population, boom and bust economies due to the real estate bust and lots of people who had traditionally worked in industries that are now facing high unemployment. The minimum wage has nothing to do with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclone8570
Wow you all sound like a bunch of cry babies. Everyone knows that increases in the minimum wage causes increases in unemployment-- its not a debate-- its fact. Here is some evidence:
Look at the states with higher than the federally mandated minimum wage... see a trend here? Yes, its those states that are in the economic dumps... california, florida...etc.
Now lets look at a study that was done in Washington and Oregon:
Wow you all sound like a bunch of cry babies. Everyone knows that increases in the minimum wage causes increases in unemployment-- its not a debate-- its fact. Here is some evidence:
Look at the states with higher than the federally mandated minimum wage... see a trend here? Yes, its those states that are in the economic dumps... california, florida...etc.
Now lets look at a study that was done in Washington and Oregon:
But the evidence isn't clear-cut. Some of those states like Vermont, New Hampshire, Hawaii and Iowa have unemployment rates well below the recorded national average of 9.7%.
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