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I'm sorry, but this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Someone with food, shelter, clothing, access to public services, schools, etc. is better off than someone in Haiti who has lost everything in an Earthquake (and didn't have anything to begin with). Poverty isn't "relative" at all. Poverty means "lack of means to provide material needs." Period. If a guy can't afford Disney World, tough *****. He isn't worse off than someone starving. Sure, it sucks not going to Disney World,but he isn't worse off and I take great offense to that.
Both of you make good points.
I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think his statement is in line with "quantity of life does not necessarily equal quality of life". There are many cliches that show a similar view. "Money doesn't buy happiness", etc.
While that philosophy is true, it is best to have enough money to provide comfort. Comfort and expectations may vary among individuals. Still, what human would be comfortable with a hungry belly, or a parent who'd wake up happy everyday if they had a sick child deteriorating because they have no money for medical care.
Having enough money to be comfortable relieves stress. So much of this is relative to what each individual expects from life. Are material possessions a priority over most everything else, or are you happy with a decent house, a good car, and food in the fridge?
There definitely are simple joys in life which cost little. Maybe someone doesn't need a fancy house or car, but it's nice to have the cash on hand when that car or house needs repairs.
Did I say it didn't require a vehicle? It doesn't require a two and a half ton vehicle though. Wtf does "far reaching" mean? It's under 16 miles for me to reach the center of downtown Fort Worth. I'm only a mile or so from the highway, and can make the 16 miles in under 15 minutes on a Saturday afternoon. Maybe you should check Google Maps again!!
1. Vehicles require vehicle payments, or some cash outlay. They also require maintenance, registration, property tax, gas, etc. Vehicle payments are not something any one of you claiming 41k is just fine include.
2. Wow, you can make it 16 miles in 15 minutes on a Saturday.....how many people making 41k work only on Saturdays?
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Originally Posted by Nepenthe
Okay, I have to ask: what is your real point? You've gone on and on about how awful $41K/year is. And?? Some people say it's adequate, or even plenty. You insist it's debilitating and that the "average" person on $41K is going to be inconsolably miserable.
No, I say 41k is tight at best. Living tightly lowers your quality of life, as it adds additional frustration and stress.
41k is absolutely NEVER plenty unless you have no car payment, no student loans, little need for health insurance, and live in a very low cost of living area (which often has a lack of 41k jobs to go along with it).
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Originally Posted by Nepenthe
So, do you have a proposal? Or something you wish would happen?
Yeah, I have this novel idea that people should be paid their labor value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe
Let's say I'm average Joe and instead of the decently comfortable and satisfying life I had at the same pay range, I find myself munted and miserable on $41K. So what now?!? Keep being miserable? Forever? Suicide? Revolution? Or try to make things better:
There is only one of those things that would make any thing better. Here is a hint, praying that you can some how pull yourself up to statistical outlier is not the right one.
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Originally Posted by Nepenthe
get debt under control, develop savings, make good choices. Maybe move. Maybe pair up. Learn to live comfortably on $41K.
Do you have even a remote comprehension of the average student debt payment in this country? Car payment? Health coverage? Those three right there alone can go over 1000 bucks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe
Or learn to accept a $41K lifestyle and lot in life. Or (novel idea) work on increasing one's income. Or is it absolutely hopeless to even try and anyone at $41K or below is doomed to a life of dejection and those who claim otherwise are just extremists or rare outliers?
Its actually counterproductive in most cases to "work on increasing ones income". Unless you are referring to a sales job or something that doesnt require increased financial investment for unknown returns.
You see, no matter what you do, there will always be the same statistical outliers. There will only be X demand for X at X wage, and the rest will filter towards the median and average.
So, every idiot that gets an MBA after the point where there is no more room for statistically outlying MBA's, will do nothing more then drive down the wage for those jobs, or be forced to settle for a job hes highly overqualified for, but with the debt he incurred to qualify for the outlying job.
From an objective point of view relative poverty within a nation does not mean that much, but psychologically its the only thing that matters. Most people compare their position in life to other members of their community. So randomguy is filled with communist angst because his income level is low in comparison to others.
Anyhow, people's wages doing down does not mean anything. If everyone's wage goes down its no different than everyone's wages going up.
That is the average, not the entry level pay rate. I applied at Walmart a few years back for a second job (before they jacked up minimum), they didnt even have a box to check for an expected wage over $8.25 an hour.
You have to work up to that wage in all likelihood. Not unlike many other jobs in this world.
Either way, Wal-mart is not a breadwinner job, so it's silly of you to expect otherwise. It's an entry-level job that requires no education.
So much of this is relative to what each individual expects from life. Are material possessions a priority over most everything else, or are you happy with a decent house, a good car, and food in the fridge?
This is sort of the crux of my argument. Essentially, within a country, poverty is defined as some level of income, there is usually a dollar figure attached, and that is relative in some way to the overall quality of life the country on a whole has. If we assume that poverty is some degree less then median income, and a median income was perfectly correlated with happiness, then the closer the poverty level is to the median wage, the happier the population is within the borders of a country (assuming the GINI index is not high).
This is completely separate from "absolute quality of life".
One must imagine, say, Haiti, as its own world. Most of them would never know about any of the things we have in the US, and many of the poorest probably dont have a clue even in the age of globalism and trillion dollar advertising campaigns.
Most Haitians would be content living at the median quality of life, given the GINI index was at a reasonable level. Only when access to global resources and the accompanying definitions of poverty arose, is when poverty became absolute.
Here is something to ponder. There are tribal chiefs in this world, they are considered very wealthy because they have a pile of shells and four thatched hut houses. They often face the same troubles that other "civilized" peoples of the third world countries they occupy face, such as lack of consistant food or access to medicine, A/C or clean water......yet, these cheifs are very content, even happy. Why? Because they are wealthy and top dog within the constraints of their civilization.
From an objective point of view relative poverty within a nation does not mean that much, but psychologically its the only thing that matters. Most people compare their position in life to other members of their community. So randomguy is filled with communist angst because his income level is low in comparison to others.
Well actually, its not my absolute position that "fills me with communist angst", I am just a representitive of the the uncontrolled gini growth and the swelling groups of the underemployed, which is actually, which is where my issue actually lies.
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Originally Posted by user_id
Anyhow, people's wages doing down does not mean anything. If everyone's wage goes down its no different than everyone's wages going up.
In theory, but its how you define "everyone" which is the kicker. If the GINI goes up, as John Q. Publics wage goes down, it means a whole lot more then if literally all wages fell across the board, and the GINI stayed consistant or fell.
From an objective point of view relative poverty within a nation does not mean that much, but psychologically its the only thing that matters. Most people compare their position in life to other members of their community. So randomguy is filled with communist angst because his income level is low in comparison to others.
Anyhow, people's wages doing down does not mean anything. If everyone's wage goes down its no different than everyone's wages going up.
Pretty much. I think wealth should be distributed better, but even I find his comments about a poor person not being able to afford Disney World in worse condition than a starving Haitian ridiculous. Also, you see the mind gymnastics he pulls to put words in my mouth and all of a sudden turn me into the poster child of globalization?
1. Vehicles require vehicle payments, or some cash outlay. They also require maintenance, registration, property tax, gas, etc. Vehicle payments are not something any one of you claiming 41k is just fine include.
Do you pay property tax on your vehicle? Whether a cash outlay or payments, a vehicle expense can be managed, on $41K, so as to not create a perpetual, neverending monthly bill.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
2. Wow, you can make it 16 miles in 15 minutes on a Saturday.....how many people making 41k work only on Saturdays?
I usually don't go there in the afternoon on a work day, because my work is only a few miles away. As I said, there are plentiful jobs without having to go to FW, but I can when I want (which is an evening or a Saturday afternoon). The point is we're not some isolated little town out in the boonies. There are jobs and there are things to do.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
41k is absolutely NEVER plenty unless you have no car payment, no student loans, little need for health insurance, and live in a very low cost of living area (which often has a lack of 41k jobs to go along with it).
Okay, I disagree but I'm an outlier so what do I know? On a side note, do you have champagne tastes? What do you spend your money on?
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
Yeah, I have this novel idea that people should be paid their labor value.
The labor theory of value is hardly novel and hardly realistic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude
...praying that you can some how pull yourself up to statistical outlier is not the right one.
There you go, victim mentality. People are powerless to improve unless the government does it for them.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
Do you have even a remote comprehension of the average student debt payment in this country? Car payment? Health coverage? Those three right there alone can go over 1000 bucks.
Oh, you're right, it's hopeless.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
Its actually counterproductive in most cases to "work on increasing ones income".
More hopelessness. We're all just pawns.
I sympathize with you a little. If this is how you really think, life must seem hopelessly unjust and bitter. Not sure what else to tell you.
Pretty much. I think wealth should be distributed better, but even I find his comments about a poor person not being able to afford Disney World in worse condition than a starving Haitian ridiculous.
My argument was that he is doing better relatively. You discounted relative poverty as non existant, and made the claim that absolute poverty is the only definition of poverty.
Thats simply not the case.
Obviously, the Haitian with no food is in more absolute poverty then the US poor person with food, but relatively, the Haitian might just be doing better.
Eliminating globalism from the equation, relative poverty is the only thing that matters to an invidual. If nobody around him has a better life then him, and a better life is not obtainable to his peer group, he will become content and even happy with what he has.
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Originally Posted by runningncircles1
Also, you see the mind gymnastics he pulls to put words in my mouth and all of a sudden turn me into the poster child of globalization?
I didnt put a single word in your mouth. You yourself stated that relative poverty doesnt matter and that poverty can only be defined as absolute.
Absolute poverty erases borders and compares every single person, regardless of their standing in their country or community, in one big pot, and defines poverty from there.
When you compare the Haitian poor and the US poor on the absolute poverty scale YOU ARE USING A GLOBALIST POSITION. You have erased borders and are trying to compare people in completely different economies and environments.
Yep, even though its ten years old and practically worthless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe
Whether a cash outlay or payments, a vehicle expense can be managed, on $41K, so as to not create a perpetual, neverending monthly bill.
My sister recently bought a Toyota Corolla.....23k out the door. Want to take a guess what the payments on that are? Right around 400 bucks a month. We arent talking an Escalade here. Most small passenger cars are pushing 20k now.
Now, if you have managed to pay off your car, then 41k is a little easier to get by on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe
I usually don't go there in the afternoon on a work day, because my work is only a few miles away. As I said, there are plentiful jobs without having to go to FW, but I can when I want (which is an evening or a Saturday afternoon). The point is we're not some isolated little town out in the boonies.
Keller, TX is hardly a hotbed for jobs. There were exactly 865 of them within 5 miles according to an indeed.com search, and about half paid less then 40k. You can try to convince yourself that most of the people in your little burg arent driving to Dallas or Forth Worth every day, but it doesnt make it true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe
On a side note, do you have champagne tastes? What do you spend your money on?
$660 rent (far below market rate)
$250 on utilities/water and trash (about the average)
$43 on internet
$15 on a Netflix subsciption
$40 on a cell phone
$40-60 on gas
$300 on food and everything else
$76 on car insurance
$10 on renters insurance
My car is paid off and has been for years, and I have no student loans
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Originally Posted by Nepenthe
The labor theory of value is hardly novel and hardly realistic.
The novel crack was sarcastic, and I fail to see how its not realistic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe
There you go, victim mentality. People are powerless to improve unless the government does it for them.
Who said anything about the government?
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Okay, I have to ask: what is your real point? You've gone on and on about how awful $41K/year is. And?? Some people say it's adequate, or even plenty. You insist it's debilitating and that the "average" person on $41K is going to be inconsolably miserable. 
On a side note, do you have champagne tastes? What do you spend your money on? 
More hopelessness. We're all just pawns.
