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Old 11-04-2010, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 20,493,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
Wrong.

I have several coworkers (software developers) who are single income households that maintain a standard of living few would consider on the lower end of anything.
Your software developer folks' salaries (and other income) are not the average income of the average worker falling out of the middle class today. Note too that you are living in LA.
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Old 11-04-2010, 09:30 AM
 
8,265 posts, read 11,420,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
Your software developer folks' salaries (and other income) are not the average income of the average worker falling out of the middle class today. Note too that you are living in LA.
Easy there, you're moving the goal posts. Now we've got "average income" qualifiers instead of blanket statements about the middle class.


You said:

"To hang on to even the higher end of "middle class" one generation ago all you needed was one really good, stable income for life, which is what people in the middle class then had. "

The people I referenced certainly make higher than median salary but it is also a middle class position and middle class income, they aren't executives, heart surgeons, or partners in law firms. They are doing exactly what you look back at as something only possible in previous generations, having one good stable income to lead a comfortable middle class life.


You said:

"To maintain even the lower end of middle class today (the way it is defined generally today) you need at least two household incomes and at least one credit card if not a slew"

So I assume you'd like to amend this claim to certain salary limitations within middle class? There are guys in other positions making $50kish who also have a stay at home wife and kids, they have houses and drive their big pickups to work too.


Also = I live in Arizona.
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Old 11-04-2010, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,810 posts, read 17,849,209 times
Reputation: 9447
In #161 I wrote:
Be that as it may. Those who favor statistics instead of their own memory have cultivated a BIAS in favor of statistics. There is no getting away from one bias or another.
In #164 user_id responded with:
Like I said, a fundamental misunderstanding of mathematics. There is nothing to favor as there is no conflict in the first place, your personal experiences aren't the sort of thing that can refute a statistical generalization. These two statements are, logically, of rather different character:
While I agree with your assertion that there is no conflict in the first place, my statement has nothing to do with mathematics. I am pointing out that everyone has a CHOICE wether to favor statistical analysis or personal experience in forming their view of the world. I'm not saying that one choice is better than the other, only that we do have a choice, and the choice we make is based on our biases....unconscious biases that we inherit, along with biases that we cultivate, and these biases shape our viewpoints, decisions, and actions.
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Old 11-04-2010, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,551,651 times
Reputation: 4343
Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
If thats true, then why is it on the east coast, white people clean beds at hotels! Even a white male, a young guy like 22 years old, made the bed at our hotel in Vermont.
This is easy to explain, the areas you are referring to lack opportunities as a result there is no need to import labor. The people working fast food, cleaning beds, etc don't want to do this work, but its the only thing available. On the other hand, areas with more vibrant economies have many opportunities and the native population has access to more lucrative careers.

California is not the only place with a large immigrant work force, you'll see the same thing in any major city in the US with a growing economy (and population).

Lastly, your comment about California is just odd given the facts. The unemployment rate in California is higher than the national average and in some areas (e.g., inland areas) its extremely high, so exactly what bubble are you talking about? Now, the wealthy are in a sense "in a bubble", but that is true whether you're in Ohio or California, the only difference is that California has more wealth than most other states.

Last edited by user_id; 11-04-2010 at 12:40 PM..
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Old 11-04-2010, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,551,651 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
I I am pointing out that everyone has a CHOICE wether to favor statistical analysis or personal experience in forming their view of the world.
And once again, this is a huge category mistake. If you're going to "favor" something over something else, usually they are the same sort of thing. But a statistical analysis and personal experience are logically much different in character. What you are saying is that "everyone has the CHOICE whether to favor a banana or a Honda".

The fact that you keep implying that the two are on the same logical level is a huge mathematical mistake.

But let's great real here, the people that continuously rely on personal experience and deny any objective data are just anti-intellectual, its about ignorance and little more.
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Old 11-04-2010, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,551,651 times
Reputation: 4343
Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
Your software developer folks' salaries (and other income) are not the average income of the average worker falling out of the middle class today. Note too that you are living in LA.
Software developer is a standard middle-class career for the modern work force.

Anyhow, I think the real issue here is that you see that someone can't work in industry X from 30 years ago and still have a "middle-class" lifestyle and that is largely true. Jobs that provided a "middle-class" lifestyle 30 years ago, often only provide a lower middle-class lifestyle today. Over the years workers in these industry would have observed a slow decline in their standard of living, but again, the real issue here is declining wages in a particular industry rather than a decline of the middle-class. The younger middle-class force is largely working in industries that hardly existed 30 years ago.
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Old 11-04-2010, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,810 posts, read 17,849,209 times
Reputation: 9447
user_id wrote:
What you are saying is that "everyone has the CHOICE whether to favor a banana or a Honda".
Those are YOUR word..not mine. My words remain the same:
While I agree with your assertion that there is no conflict in the first place, my statement has nothing to do with mathematics. I am pointing out that everyone has a CHOICE wether to favor statistical analysis or personal experience in forming their view of the world. I'm not saying that one choice is better than the other, only that we do have a choice, and the choice we make is based on our biases....unconscious biases that we inherit, along with biases that we cultivate, and these biases shape our viewpoints, decisions, and actions.
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Old 11-04-2010, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,551,651 times
Reputation: 4343
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
Those are YOUR word..not mine. My words remain the same:
Umm....its called an analogy. The point is that, logically, what you are doing is equivalent to my assertion (although, I should have said "is like" rather than "is that").

Also, you are completely making up a human bias, people have no bias towards seeking a proper statistical analysis, rather the opposite. People have a tendency to put more weight on their personal experiences then is logically called for, that is why we have to be very careful when dealing with generalizations. Some people, over years of effort, have trained themselves to not to fall victim to common human psychological biases and others instead bath in them. You want to pretend as if the two are on the same level, but they aren't, that is like suggesting a heroin addict is equivalent to someone that is straight-edge because the latter has a bias against drugs.

Luckily reality favors rationality over irrationality.

Last edited by user_id; 11-04-2010 at 04:00 PM..
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Old 11-04-2010, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
2,884 posts, read 5,495,428 times
Reputation: 2753
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
This is easy to explain, the areas you are referring to lack opportunities as a result there is no need to import labor. The people working fast food, cleaning beds, etc don't want to do this work, but its the only thing available. On the other hand, areas with more vibrant economies have many opportunities and the native population has access to more lucrative careers.

California is not the only place with a large immigrant work force, you'll see the same thing in any major city in the US with a growing economy (and population).

Lastly, your comment about California is just odd given the facts. The unemployment rate in California is higher than the national average and in some areas (e.g., inland areas) its extremely high, so exactly what bubble are you talking about? Now, the wealthy are in a sense "in a bubble", but that is true whether you're in Ohio or California, the only difference is that California has more wealth than most other states.
The west coast especially is in a bubble.

A. There's less manual labor. I think until you've seen states that are primarily rooted in manual labor (like the east coast), you don't really know whats going on in the economy.

The west is paper pushing, finance, information based, internet based. It's so ethereal and hazy. The east seems so much more rooted in reality.

I don't think working fast food, cleaning beds is necessarily a bad job. You've got to start somewhere. This is where you see the "hand out" mentality in the west. No one wants to do them! Whites (teens) wouldn't do that work. So, let's give everyone a handout because they can't do this kind of work.

California is a tangled disaster compared to some of these east coast states. The roads and infrastructure is a shambles compared to the east. All the toll roads, freeways, highways I drove on were in great shape. In upstate ny, there were signs, they'd suspend your license if you were caught speeding twice through construction work!

Where is this kind of discipline in the west? Not california. It seems like there's a mentality there, of you have to pay for it now to use it. Like toll roads. Here, we put the toll road on a credit card for 30 years, lol.

B. In terms of being in a "bubble", that can go for either working in a cubicle, working from a home office. Or basically working indoors. Working indoors in the west does not show you what's truely going on in the country. I think boomers would have planned differently if they saw what was truely going on in the country. Skip the $6 lattes and $299 gadgets. And put away 10-15% a year. Boomers in the west have been lulled to sleep in some ways. Too much mania and materialism (esp in the last 10-20 years). They could have gotten off the ride before the last housing boom (and bust).
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,551,651 times
Reputation: 4343
Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
A. There's less manual labor. I think until you've seen states that are primarily rooted in manual labor (like the east coast), you don't really know whats going on in the economy.
Sorry, but the east coast is not "primarily rooted in manual labor", California is actually involved in more manufacturing than most east-coast states (LA has one of the biggest manufacturing sectors in the country). Also, comparing California to Vermont makes no sense, compare Vermont to Utah.

Perhaps you should visit the actual east-coast before you start talking about it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
The west is paper pushing, finance, information based, internet based.
Again you got it all backwards, New York is the financial capital of the US, not California. Washington DC is the home to most federal agencies, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
B. In terms of being in a "bubble", that can go for either working in a cubicle, working from a home office. Or basically working indoors. Working indoors in the west does not show you what's truely going on in the country.
To say it again, Los Angeles has one of the largest manufacturing sectors in the country, apparently you aren't even familiar with the city you live in let alone a region 3,000+ miles away. But as a whole California is a "knowledge economy", areas like Western PA, update NY etc are not, instead they are home to low-skilled jobs.

Anyhow, the area of the country you visited is not even the east-coast, rather its Appalachia. Its much different than the east-coast, the east-coast is far more similar to California than it is to Appalachia in terms of its economy, demographics, etc.

Lastly, most Boomers in California were not born in California and are aware of other areas of the country, not to mention people travel all the time. Its bizarre that you think you're the only person in California that has traveled outside of California, if anybody is in a bubble its you.
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