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Old 11-11-2010, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 20,584,536 times
Reputation: 15753

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
Can we please have a conversation? It seems like you are trying to attack me at every turn. That is a major turnoff in any discussion.

My numbers came from the Department of Health and Human Services National Vital Statistics Reports, vol 54., no. 19. Feel free to check for yourself.
I don't think he was attacking you. I personally found his post (right above) fascinating. Your excellent discussion is keeping us on our toes!
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Old 11-11-2010, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,810 posts, read 17,911,720 times
Reputation: 9447
hnsq wrote:
In my opinion, intuition is what people rely on when they don't want to do the real work to crunch numbers.
It is defineitley not laziness the way I employ my intution. Rather than laziness I see it as inner guidance. If you read thru my posts, you will see that it is usually AFTER I've already done the grunt work of crunching the numbers that it becomes an option for me.

Oftentimes in my work as a programmer, AFTER considerable trial and error and stiil not getting my program to do what it needs to do, I realize that the best thing I can do at that point is to stop laboring, go take a walk outside, free my mind, and allow the solution to come to me. It just about ALWAYS does. I KNOW without having implemented it, that it IS the solution I need to make my program work. All I need to do is write that peice of code and I got it working. BUT...that doesn't happen until I've already done the grunt work. For me it is not one or the other...I use both number crunching and intuition as the situation calls for.

So when I look at the statistics suggesting that the cost-income relationship in the 60s and 70s is so dramatically different than I remember, I am distrustful of those numbers, preferring to trust my memory, my gut, my heart instead. Right or wrong...that is my choice!

Last edited by CosmicWizard; 11-11-2010 at 04:03 PM..
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Old 11-11-2010, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 20,584,536 times
Reputation: 15753
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
I work an average of 75-80 hours/week (more than that and I start to burn out mentally), and wouldn't have it any other way. I couldn't stand to have the 'working for the weekend' attitude. I want my work to mean something, and when work is meaningful, it becomes enjoyable, and when work is enjoyable, you don't WANT to stop working. That being said, If you wish to discuss the intrinsic value of work, PM me. I would love to have that conversation, however I feel that might bring us off topic a bit more than we already are.
I think my point was that there is a huge difference between kinds of jobs and many of these--longshoremen, construction workers, long-haul drivers, waiters, cooks, etc. take their toll on health as they age. Raising the retirement age to 70 or 75 or them would be a nightmare. Desk jobs, by comparison, even if you work 75 hrs a week, is easy on age. When one says "let's raise the retirement age" you can bet s/he is working a desk job.
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Old 11-11-2010, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 20,584,536 times
Reputation: 15753
Wizard: So when I look at the statistics suggesting that the cost-income relationship in the 60s and 70s is so dramatically different than I remember, I am distrustful of those numbers, preferring to trust my memory, my gut, my heart instead. Right or wrong...that is my choice![/quote]

I think most boomers know the difference between cost:income relationship then and now. It's the younger folks who didn't experience that way of life who don't get it. I repeat, no one in my lower middle class demographic when I was growing up (post WWII) lost their job or their house, and I would be willing to bet didn't go into bankruptcy. This was simply not a way of life or values then. While most did not live high, we were solid in our jobs and homes and in our (rather large) families. We always had food. I don't know about the "lower" classes. I'd like to hear the experience from those who are boomers who grew up "poor."


November 11: By the way, to all posters who are veterans, many many thanks. You're the greatest!
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Old 11-11-2010, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,617,255 times
Reputation: 4343
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
So true! That is one of my blind spots on the forum. I direct my commments to what people actually write, not on their invisible nuances which don't come across to me in the written word.
No, you ignore what people actually write and instead pigeonhole it in one of your caricatures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
Apparently you forget that nuance is more challenging to convey thru the written word on a forum.
I was actually referring to conceptual nuance, not literary nuance. My writing is far from nuanced, its very dry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
yet both are intangibles that can be easily glossed over.
There is nothing intangible here, the issue is that some people only hear and understand shibboleths, yet the meat of most issues can't be expressed as such. Its a common affliction of the undereducated.

There is also nothing intangible about "gut feelings", they are simply emotion impulses that originate from the more primitive parts of your brain.
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Old 11-11-2010, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,617,255 times
Reputation: 4343
Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
--the growing segments poverty, the reversing fortunes of many in the middle class, and the soon reversing security of many elderly cannot be argued in terms of numbers for several reasons --
You can't determine to what degree poverty is increasing, how the middle-class is doing, etc by using qualitative methods, you need to use quantitative methods. Your argument against quantitative methods makes no sense at all, its easy to determine whether or not a study is "faulty" by design or biased. What the media does with studies is irrelevant, usually the media simplifies studies into cheap slogans that plebs can understand, if they reported with more depth they wouldn't have an audience.

Anyhow, you are doing little about ranting here, you've not provided a single concrete reason why the data posted earlier is indeed faulty, you have instead just stated that it could be faulty.
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Old 11-11-2010, 09:13 PM
 
9,856 posts, read 14,369,924 times
Reputation: 5461
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Sorry, not trying to attack you, just trying to show how easy it can be to manipulate data. What you think is being said, is often different than reality. People make fortunes making black look white and vice versa.
The legal profession is so adept at hiding the truth they have their own language. Legal terms often have different meanings than colloquial English.
Don't even get me started on government.
No big deal. I agree with you that data is easy to manipulate. Context is very, very important. Taking something (quantitative or qualitative) at face value is often a dangerous thing to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
hnsq wrote:
In my opinion, intuition is what people rely on when they don't want to do the real work to crunch numbers.
It is defineitley not laziness the way I employ my intution. Rather than laziness I see it as inner guidance. If you read thru my posts, you will see that it is usually AFTER I've already done the grunt work of crunching the numbers that it becomes an option for me.

Oftentimes in my work as a programmer, AFTER considerable trial and error and stiil not getting my program to do what it needs to do, I realize that the best thing I can do at that point is to stop laboring, go take a walk outside, free my mind, and allow the solution to come to me. It just about ALWAYS does. I KNOW without having implemented it, that it IS the solution I need to make my program work. All I need to do is write that peice of code and I got it working. BUT...that doesn't happen until I've already done the grunt work. For me it is not one or the other...I use both number crunching and intuition as the situation calls for.

So when I look at the statistics suggesting that the cost-income relationship in the 60s and 70s is so dramatically different than I remember, I am distrustful of those numbers, preferring to trust my memory, my gut, my heart instead. Right or wrong...that is my choice!
I never said completely ignore anything qualitative. I simply thing relying on nothing but a gut feeling (without any factual basis) is very foolish.

Those flashes of inspiration don't come to people without already doing some research first (in my opinion at least).

Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
I think my point was that there is a huge difference between kinds of jobs and many of these--longshoremen, construction workers, long-haul drivers, waiters, cooks, etc. take their toll on health as they age. Raising the retirement age to 70 or 75 or them would be a nightmare. Desk jobs, by comparison, even if you work 75 hrs a week, is easy on age. When one says "let's raise the retirement age" you can bet s/he is working a desk job.
That is fair. When we talk about retirement age though, we were only talking about when social security kicks in fully. You are more then welcome to retire before that. Hopefully SS is not the only source for a person's retirement.
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Old 11-12-2010, 09:33 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,789,256 times
Reputation: 5185
Another point of the whole retirement age argument is why should the government be able to dictate your retirement age to begin with?
The only consideration you should be concerned with about retirement is when you can afford to do so. Social Security should be figured like any other annuity. The sooner you retire the less you collect per month.
Insurance companies have no problem whatsoever figuring these annuity tables for payout while at the same time remaining extremely profitable.
The truth is the government, and corporations has a vested interest in keeping you working as long as possible.
The system as it stands presently is equivalent to slavery.
Now as in centuries past only a small percentage of the population can ever afford to purchase their freedom. Most will work up until just a very few years of death.
The real beauty of this system over the systems of the past is that way back when, the slave masters had to house, clothe, feed, and provide medical care for their slaves. Slaves were always expensive to purchase, and to maintain.
Today the slaves do not have to be initially purchased, and they maintain themselves. If they are unproductive, or ill, they simply end up homeless and of no cost to the slave owners. They may be given a small subsistence, but even that is paid for by the other slaves.
If they begin to demand higher wages, you simply increase immigration and alter the supply/demand ratio of workers, driving up unemployment and driving down wages.
In their old age, most of whatever wealth they have been able to accumulate is held in their home equity. Without sufficient savings and continually rising costs of living, most will need to obtain reverse mortgages just to survive. As a result most will deplete their home equity and die without ever accumulating any wealth to pass to their heirs, thus maintaining the system.
Of course in order for this system to work efficiently, the people must be persuaded to buy into a culture of materialism in which they perpetually spend all their wages on material goods, preferably on credit in order to maximize their subserviency, and their need of constant employment for survival.
Television advertising seems to work well to fulfill this requirement. Think back a few years ago when the commercials were efficiently persuading people to continually increase their debt thru HELOCS in order to purchase rapidly depreciating vehicles, go on vacations, and basically spend their money on anything which would negatively affect their wealth going forward.
You really have to hand it to them, it is brilliant. They did not abolish slavery, they perfected it.
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Old 11-12-2010, 09:46 AM
 
3,219 posts, read 6,155,234 times
Reputation: 1850
Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post


November 11: By the way, to all posters who are veterans, many many thanks. You're the greatest!
I am a veteran of unemployment, no health insurance and being practically broke now in my late 40's does that count?

Boomers are either going to die working or die from being unemployed.

Thanks NAFTA and the jobs that left the USA for good.
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Old 11-12-2010, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,017 posts, read 19,432,417 times
Reputation: 32481
Default Free will, free choice, and slavery

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Another point of the whole retirement age argument is why should the government be able to dictate your retirement age to begin with?
The only consideration you should be concerned with about retirement is when you can afford to do so. Social Security should be figured like any other annuity. The sooner you retire the less you collect per month.
Insurance companies have no problem whatsoever figuring these annuity tables for payout while at the same time remaining extremely profitable.
The truth is the government, and corporations has a vested interest in keeping you working as long as possible.
The system as it stands presently is equivalent to slavery.
Now as in centuries past only a small percentage of the population can ever afford to purchase their freedom. Most will work up until just a very few years of death.
The real beauty of this system over the systems of the past is that way back when, the slave masters had to house, clothe, feed, and provide medical care for their slaves. Slaves were always expensive to purchase, and to maintain.
Today the slaves do not have to be initially purchased, and they maintain themselves. If they are unproductive, or ill, they simply end up homeless and of no cost to the slave owners. They may be given a small subsistence, but even that is paid for by the other slaves.
If they begin to demand higher wages, you simply increase immigration and alter the supply/demand ratio of workers, driving up unemployment and driving down wages.
In their old age, most of whatever wealth they have been able to accumulate is held in their home equity. Without sufficient savings and continually rising costs of living, most will need to obtain reverse mortgages just to survive. As a result most will deplete their home equity and die without ever accumulating any wealth to pass to their heirs, thus maintaining the system.
Of course in order for this system to work efficiently, the people must be persuaded to buy into a culture of materialism in which they perpetually spend all their wages on material goods, preferably on credit in order to maximize their subserviency, and their need of constant employment for survival.
Television advertising seems to work well to fulfill this requirement. Think back a few years ago when the commercials were efficiently persuading people to continually increase their debt thru HELOCS in order to purchase rapidly depreciating vehicles, go on vacations, and basically spend their money on anything which would negatively affect their wealth going forward.
You really have to hand it to them, it is brilliant. They did not abolish slavery, they perfected it.
While I agree that the excessive debt which people voluntarily took on constitutes a form of slavery, the use of slavery as a metaphor for our economic system is hyperbole at best, massive overkill for sure. That's because there is no force or coercion involved. We are all free simply to not participate. That's what I did, from the moment I managed my own fianances at age 18 (which was 48 years ago), I chose to live within my means and mainly as a result of that choice I was not locked in to the Social Security "full retirement age". This is not so rare as you seem to think. When people can opt out of something with no penalty then that something is not slavery. People have "enslaved" themselves (if you insist on the term) by their own stupidity; the government has not enslaved them.
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