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Old 09-23-2010, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 20,161,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
So what correlation do you think this is to anything related to the topic?

So the upper end is not spending as much?

Back towards the point, the "pyramid" is still narrowing, even if the peak is higher. Still all points to a topple and collapse.
Weakness (disappearance) at the middle will cause the topple and collapse.
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Old 09-24-2010, 07:31 PM
 
48,508 posts, read 89,006,869 times
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Not really IMO. What we now thign of as the miidle class by living standards might be different . But the amount need to be miidle class and that standard has and can change. Certainyl a middle class home has no comparison to one just 30 years ago.The modern middle class that is upward mobile is pretty much a post war invention. It satrted with massive expansion especaily when western europe was basically broke both winners and losers.I grewup in the 50-60's and my family was upper middle class i income. I am pretty sold middle class but not upper. My satndard of living is far above anything my parents experienced. Disposabe income is a far higher per centage really.
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Old 09-25-2010, 06:02 AM
 
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Though recession is over officially, but Americans are still knee deep in debts. Whatever might the official statistics must be indicating, nothing much has changed for a common man.
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Old 09-25-2010, 10:15 AM
 
8,265 posts, read 11,254,170 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
I am pretty sold middle class but not upper. My satndard of living is far above anything my parents experienced. Disposabe income is a far higher per centage really.
Most are this way, I saw some chart once that showed the percentage of people's income that went towards food/housing in previous generations versus today and it isn't even close.

Middle class today with large home, mobile phone, digital TV with a hundred channels, two vehicles, etc. is a wealthy person in previous generation.
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Old 09-28-2010, 11:45 AM
 
532 posts, read 1,163,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Washington's Blog (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2010/09/american-consumers-are-not-deleveraging.html - broken link)

The truth is the suffering associated with the great recession for most is still yet to be experienced. The recovery being touted by the press daily is being financed to the tune of 8 billion dollars monthly by people not paying their mortgages. In other words there is no recovery. Is this situation sustainable? Of course not. Have American consumers learned to save and live within their means? No. They are still spending other people’s money to support lifestyles they themselves cannot afford. This ensures that another leg down in the great recession awaits us, and it will be much more painful that anything we have experienced up until now.
Actually I believe the opposite is true. The fact that we are a hard headed people unwilling to save and wait for our goods and services ensures the machine will churn on. Our economy is built on consumer credit and our voracious appetite to consume. If that were to change then our economy would really be in trouble.
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:29 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,662,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burb View Post
Actually I believe the opposite is true. The fact that we are a hard headed people unwilling to save and wait for our goods and services ensures the machine will churn on. Our economy is built on consumer credit and our voracious appetite to consume. If that were to change then our economy would really be in trouble.
What you may or may not believe is irrelevant. Reality does not care what you believe. The fact is if you were right, the economy would not have collapsed in the first place.
When you are paying for today’s consumption with tomorrows earnings, you had better be damn sure those earnings are forthcoming, otherwise you are in big trouble. Now multiply that by about 15 million and you will begin to see the scope of the problem.
Borrowing from tomorrow to pay for today is short sighted and the sure path to poverty. That is why the rich lend, and the poor borrow.
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Old 09-28-2010, 07:49 PM
 
8,265 posts, read 11,254,170 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Borrowing from tomorrow to pay for today is short sighted and the sure path to poverty. That is why the rich lend, and the poor borrow.
My wife borrowed to go to law school, and we've not reached poverty quite yet.
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Old 09-29-2010, 02:13 AM
 
4,767 posts, read 3,279,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
What you may or may not believe is irrelevant. Reality does not care what you believe.
Is it inherent in your statement that what you believe, is the true reality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
The fact is if you were right, the economy would not have collapsed in the first place.
A recession, however deep, does not equal an economic collapse. Even if the headlines would attempt to portray it that way for ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
When you are paying for today’s consumption with tomorrows earnings, you had better be damn sure those earnings are forthcoming, otherwise you are in big trouble. Now multiply that by about 15 million and you will begin to see the scope of the problem.
Where are you getting the 15 million figure from? Are you implying that the 15 million unemployed all are living beyond their means? I am sure some are and some are making ends meet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Borrowing from tomorrow to pay for today is short sighted and the sure path to poverty. That is why the rich lend, and the poor borrow.
Not if you are borrowing future dollars (remember inflation?) to build a business or invest wisely. Lots of wealthy people got wealthy that way.

To paraphrase: "What you may or may not believe is irrelevant. Reality does not care what you believe. Particularly, if you cherry pick the source of your information to support your beliefs". Now that is a recipe for ignorance.

You seem to have a vested interest in believing that things are bound to get much worse. Three possibilities come to mind:

1. You have been very vocal on this subject and want to be proven right at all costs.

2. You have pulled all your investments money from equities and do not want to see others benefit, while you are missing out.

3. The world has given you lemons and rather than make lemonade and hook up with someone that the world gave vodka to, you have become the eternal pessimist. But, like all pessimists, you are convinced you are a realist.

I do not know which way the economy is heading, but there are two opposing views and I weigh them against each other when assessing my options.
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Old 09-29-2010, 03:15 AM
 
28,961 posts, read 31,617,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
There has been plenty of stuff saying Americans savings rate have indeed increased very much over the last few years.
It's still only around 6%, nothing to brag about. Debt levels are down, but that's mostly because of defaults being written off, not from people actually paying off their debts.
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Old 09-29-2010, 03:19 AM
 
28,961 posts, read 31,617,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burb View Post
Actually I believe the opposite is true. The fact that we are a hard headed people unwilling to save and wait for our goods and services ensures the machine will churn on. Our economy is built on consumer credit and our voracious appetite to consume. If that were to change then our economy would really be in trouble.
That hard headedness is what took our economy off a cliff. The only thing that temporarily saved our economy was a huge injection of government spending and money printing. We've just put off the worst for a later day. Everyone agrees from across the political spectrum that government debt levels are unsustainable, but no one is willing to do anything about it. Americans think someone else besides themselves should pay the higher taxes or take cuts to government programs. We still haven't learned much.
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