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Old 09-29-2010, 04:44 AM
 
16,434 posts, read 20,183,505 times
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Let me explain this as gently as possible because it's very bitter to swallow: a number of years ago the big money people that make presidents and kings moved their investments to China and India. They will insure that they succeed. Sadly for us, they aren't in the least concerned about the fate of the American worker or nation. We cost too much and aren't plumping their pockets. A GM autoworker in China makes two dollars a day. Where does that leave us? Out of work. We've been sold out, plain and simple. We have not seen the hard times yet, but they are coming. All the nebulous talk, charts, projections, posturing and spin in the world won't change the hard facts.
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Old 09-29-2010, 04:59 AM
 
4,570 posts, read 3,226,250 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
... The only thing that temporarily saved our economy was a huge injection of government spending and money printing. We've just put off the worst for a later day. Everyone agrees from across the political spectrum that government debt levels are unsustainable, but no one is willing to do anything about it. Americans think someone else besides themselves should pay the higher taxes or take cuts to government programs. We still haven't learned much.
I agree 100%. I am hoping that the large amount of government spending that has not made it's way through the system yet, will help sustain us while we slowly work our way out of the hole. I do not know if we have put off the worst or rather spread it out and muted it's effect.
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:46 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,640,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
My wife borrowed to go to law school, and we've not reached poverty quite yet.
You misunderstand what I said, the phrase concerns consumption, not investment.
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Old 09-29-2010, 11:11 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,640,067 times
Reputation: 5180
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaker281 View Post
Is it inherent in your statement that what you believe, is the true reality?:
No, reality does not care what I believe either.


Quote:
A recession, however deep, does not equal an economic collapse. Even if the headlines would attempt to portray it that way for ratings.
You are playing semantics. The point remains that if debt driven prosperity was sustainable, the economy would not have turned in the first place. We had plenty of debt driven purchases.

Quote:
Where are you getting the 15 million figure from? Are you implying that the 15 million unemployed all are living beyond their means? I am sure some are and some are making ends meet.
Any debt when you are unemployed is a burden.



Quote:
Not if you are borrowing future dollars (remember inflation?) to build a business or invest wisely. Lots of wealthy people got wealthy that way.
You are confusing consumption with investment.

Quote:
To paraphrase: "What you may or may not believe is irrelevant. Reality does not care what you believe. Particularly, if you cherry pick the source of your information to support your beliefs". Now that is a recipe for ignorance.

You seem to have a vested interest in believing that things are bound to get much worse. Three possibilities come to mind:

1. You have been very vocal on this subject and want to be proven right at all costs.

2. You have pulled all your investments money from equities and do not want to see others benefit, while you are missing out.

3. The world has given you lemons and rather than make lemonade and hook up with someone that the world gave vodka to, you have become the eternal pessimist. But, like all pessimists, you are convinced you are a realist.

I do not know which way the economy is heading, but there are two opposing views and I weigh them against each other when assessing my options.
What I have a vested interest in is truth. The public is bombarded every day with propaganda perpetuated by the banks and corporations whom are profiting from the status quo at the expense of the people. I also have a vested interest in not seeing my country slide into third world living standards as that is not the kind of country I want to live in. The fact that the truth is not rosy and positive at present is not my preference, but it is what it is. The key to turning things around is to focus our attention on the problems, not to stuff our heads in the sand and pretend they do not exist. This is not some kind of game, the stakes are high and will affect generations to come.
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Old 09-29-2010, 02:25 PM
 
16,434 posts, read 20,183,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
This is not some kind of game, the stakes are high and will affect generations to come.
Sorry, but the game was fixed and it's already over.
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Old 09-29-2010, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 20,079,751 times
Reputation: 15724
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaker281 View Post
I agree 100%. I am hoping that the large amount of government spending that has not made it's way through the system yet, will help sustain us while we slowly work our way out of the hole. I do not know if we have put off the worst or rather spread it out and muted it's effect.
The large amount the government is spending will sustain us?

It will sink us sure as yer shootin'


debt clock: www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,068 posts, read 76,811,289 times
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That large government spending did make its way through the system..India, China, Brazil's systems..NOT ours and NOT Europe.

Be aware...currency wars are starting up..US and China, China and Japan.
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Old 09-29-2010, 11:22 PM
 
Location: Texas
2,847 posts, read 2,131,347 times
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add this to the mix. If China continues to sell our Treasuries, who will finance us?

U.S. Dollar Is `One Step Nearer' to Crisis as Debt Level Climbs, Yu Says - Bloomberg
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Old 09-30-2010, 04:30 AM
 
4,570 posts, read 3,226,250 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
The large amount the government is spending will sustain us?

It will sink us sure as yer shootin'


debt clock: www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
I know what the national debt is, not sure how old you are, but I have been vocal about the national debt for a lot longer than most I know. In fact, most I hear complaining had no problem when Reagan took the national debt from 900 Billion to 2.8 Trillion during his term of office. I was vocal about it then, and I was vocal about it when GW Bush took the debt from 4 Trillion to 10 Trillion during his term. The current administration would have to attain more than 30 trillion in debt to equal Reagan's tripling our our debt!

I happen to believe that had we tried the Reaganomics approach in this particular crises it would have been too little too late and, just like the first time, our debt would have ballooned tremendously.

Keep in mind that the Bush tax cuts have yet to expire and business is NOT hiring nor is GDP growing enough. So, while I welcome further tax cuts (who doesn't?), I believe they would not have been enough all by themselves. And they would have contributed to more debt, just like they always have.

I also believe that the stimulus spending has had a positive effect, even if that effect has been less than dramatic. I do not necessarily support more spending, but I hope the funds allocated and not yet spent will continue to help retain jobs and assist those in need until some of the systemic excess has worked it's way through the system and some measure of confidence is restored.

Also, I have observed that, to a person, those most vocal about the current measures being taken are Republicans and their opinion is highly suspect as politically motivated. Personally, I believe that tax cuts have a place in monetary policy and, at times, so does spending. And let's not forget that the architects of TARP were all Republicans. That was a spending measure. I supported that desperate effort, as I support tax cuts and stimulus spending.

I really don't care who design or implements the measures that help extract us from this mess.
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Old 09-30-2010, 05:07 AM
 
4,570 posts, read 3,226,250 times
Reputation: 2902
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
...What I have a vested interest in is truth. The public is bombarded every day with propaganda perpetuated by the banks and corporations whom are profiting from the status quo at the expense of the people. I also have a vested interest in not seeing my country slide into third world living standards as that is not the kind of country I want to live in. The fact that the truth is not rosy and positive at present is not my preference, but it is what it is. The key to turning things around is to focus our attention on the problems, not to stuff our heads in the sand and pretend they do not exist. This is not some kind of game, the stakes are high and will affect generations to come.
You seem to have a vested interest in what you believe is the truth. And your posts all have a common theme that the sky is falling and every act being taken is incompetent. There are many sides to this issue and you have chosen only one, believing you have the correct point of view. And how exactly do you know that the information you post is not propaganda?

And you think you need to tell folks the future is dim. Guess what? Everyone has cable TV and an internet connection. But, we cannot see what is right in front of us and we need you to guide us.

And you care about the country, but apparently no one else does. Or we all have our heads in the sand. Not you though. If only you can get us to focus, we will be on the road to recovery. Assuming you are employed, are you a manager of some sort?

Last edited by shaker281; 09-30-2010 at 05:21 AM..
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