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Old 10-19-2010, 11:22 PM
 
8,265 posts, read 11,259,509 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
As recently as the 90's, there was quality tv, and quality role models. The Cosbys were better role models than "2 and a half men". Or TGIF on ABC. But they killed that. In favor of exploitative trash television. I think aimed at lowering morals, and basically confusing people about what a "family" should look like.
Sounds like back-in-the-day syndrome.

The 80s and 90s also gave us Baywatch, Married with Children, The Simpsons, Beavis and Butthead, Melrose Place, Bosom Buddies, and whatever else I can't think of.
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Old 10-20-2010, 01:27 AM
 
29,046 posts, read 31,654,372 times
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Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
Sounds like back-in-the-day syndrome.

The 80s and 90s also gave us Baywatch, Married with Children, The Simpsons, Beavis and Butthead, Melrose Place, Bosom Buddies, and whatever else I can't think of.
Yeah, people have been complaining about trash television since I've been alive. I was born in 1970. If more of us turned off the TV and got out and actually did stuff (exercise, community service, reading, etc), the trash would go away.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:05 PM
 
3,763 posts, read 11,409,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
As recently as the 90's, there was quality tv, and quality role models. The Cosbys were better role models than "2 and a half men". Or TGIF on ABC. But they killed that. In favor of exploitative trash television. I think aimed at lowering morals, and basically confusing people about what a "family" should look like.

American media is probably worst than european. For some reason, I think american media has more influence. Maybe because America has less traditional roots than germany, france or holland.

-Also not covered in the media, gay couples could be considered part of the new middle class! I never read about that. Like this story, Neil Patrick Harris becoming a parent.

Neil Patrick Harris Becomes a Parent, Welcomes Twins Via Surrogate | TheCelebrityCafe.com

Wouldn't he have been considered single in the 50's or 60's? Whether you agree with it or not, that's a new "liberated" middle class existence.

Well - since middle class has nothing to do with "liberated" or not, and nothing in fact to do with being straight or not straight - I don't see how this is pertinent.

And since the person your referencing, NPH, is in fact a television star - he's hardly middle class. He's in fact way above most of our leagues in the economic department.

Middle class is an economic label. If you are a couple - you can be a middle class couple - even if only one of you works and the other person is a hanger-on. Or, you can be middle class as a single person. Or middle class as a family unit (nuclear - extended, whatever).

But middle class does not pre-suppose "heterosexual, married couple, who have good old "American" values".


And to everyone who wrote that the divorce rates have dropped because less people get married - that's not entirely true either. College educated women are getting married in higher numbers than ever before. However H.S. educated girls - not so much. And, whether or not there's a specific reason why divorce rates are dropping - the fact of the matter is they are dropping and have been for 30 years. So before you (the first many posters) repeat a mistruth ("Divorce rates are at the highest levels in years and have led to the decline of the society") - you should at least know that it is not a truth.

Whether society is declining is another debate. But don't blame it on divorce, when those #s have been improving for almost 40 years.
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Old 10-21-2010, 06:11 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,684,192 times
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Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
I pretty much agree with your assesment. But I'm saying the welfare state is what's propping up the middle class in Europe. And unfortunately, that is unsustainable because of its high cost.
This is a bit of a digression, but I don't really think that is it, exactly. The welfare state has shown considerable longevity in the face of frequent predictions of its imminent demise.

If a welfare state costs, say 15 % of a countrys GDP (randomly grabbed number), and the population of a democracy is willing to pay that, there is really no problem.

Other countries may chose to spend money on other indulgences -a huge military, monuments to the Great Leader, massive feats of engineering, etc. As long as they are willing to pay what it costs, that works out.
(And that includes secondary benefits from the economic activity)

The problem comes when countries are only willing to pay, say 10% for 15 %s worth of services. And covers the rest with loans. And you don't need to borrow 5 % of GDP each year to get into trouble, even 0,5 % or less racks up fast over the decades.

Not only the welfare states are in economic trouble here. Spain, the USA and Portugal have never been known as big welfare states. Germany, Norway, Denmark etc have. There isn't a lot of correlation between welfare - economic problems.

It is an issue of living within your means. Budgeting within them. Countries and states that have spent more than they earned are in trouble, welfare state or not.
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:02 AM
 
8,265 posts, read 11,259,509 times
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Fair point Grim, but as far as I know (and could be wrong) the problem of changing demographics has only entered into the equation this generation. As Europe's population ages and worker/retiree ratio rapidly climbs it is putting a burden on the state's coffers that is unprecedented.
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:43 AM
 
60,144 posts, read 46,810,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
I thought this was a more balanced assessment of what's happened with America's middle class than many of the posts I see on this board. It talks about how the "high water mark" for the middle class was around 1969 or early 1970s, depending on how you massage the numbers.

The one thing the article don't mention that I think is important: If America had the same divorce rate and out-of-wedlock birth rate it did in 1969, there would be fewer poor people and more middle class and upper middle class people. But I guess it's not politically correct to mention that.

How the Middle Class Is Shrinking - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/How-the-Middle-Class-Is-usnews-368315621.html?x=0 - broken link)
Dude, didn't you get the memo that the only legitimate source on the economy is the economic collapse blog?
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