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Old 10-22-2010, 03:43 PM
 
3,398 posts, read 4,612,409 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
I hear what you are saying.

I would strongly urge you to consider that if you did pay a lump sum up front...essentially the present value of all future government services for the property into the future....that you are trusting them not to squander that money and then fail to provide said services in the future.

I'd rather give my money to a crack addict for safe keeping than to a politician.
I don't think the government needs this money in order to pay for the services. They waste much of what they get their hands on and take way more than is needed to run a country and provide. It isn't about providing services. It is a means of government control. Just like Obama care.
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Old 10-22-2010, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 20,105,251 times
Reputation: 15725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Ah, I found a more trustworthy source. Basically, the municipalities are having a hard time collecting UNPAID PROPERTY TAXES and so are outsourcing the collections.

So yeah a lot of people ARE blaming the banks when the core issue is that people aren't paying their property taxes and then the municipalities are just turning them over to collections.

How is this anything new? Unpaid debts turned over to collection agencies.
Yes, I was assuming we were talking about unpaid property taxes. The core issue is that there are some people (not all) who cannot keep up with property taxes due to fixed incomes or low income. They may have even paid off their homes by working their butts off, and were able to pay incremental increases in taxes over many years, but now suddenly those taxes are leaping up way beyond reasonable.

If the last override that was attempted in my town had gone through, my taxes would have risen in one fell swoop by 33%. Now, if the town had such a huge shortfall this year, what's going to happen next year as our economy worsens--what kind of % rise would my townspeople be facing? How can the town keep relying on the same 1200 households to keep paying for their budgetary inefficiencies and overblown school budgets?? 35% of residents in my town are elderly on fixed incomes. Will they be forced out of their homes by the banks that now have the power to foreclose based on unpaid taxes?
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Old 10-22-2010, 09:29 PM
 
59,471 posts, read 46,452,682 times
Reputation: 36877
Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
Yes, I was assuming we were talking about unpaid property taxes. The core issue is that there are some people (not all) who cannot keep up with property taxes due to fixed incomes or low income. They may have even paid off their homes by working their butts off, and were able to pay incremental increases in taxes over many years, but now suddenly those taxes are leaping up way beyond reasonable.

If the last override that was attempted in my town had gone through, my taxes would have risen in one fell swoop by 33%. Now, if the town had such a huge shortfall this year, what's going to happen next year as our economy worsens--what kind of % rise would my townspeople be facing? How can the town keep relying on the same 1200 households to keep paying for their budgetary inefficiencies and overblown school budgets?? 35% of residents in my town are elderly on fixed incomes. Will they be forced out of their homes by the banks that now have the power to foreclose based on unpaid taxes?
I agree 100% with what you are saying. However, the AMOUNT or INCREASE of property taxes has nothing to do with this thread.

Re-read the title....it's claiming "predatory tax collection" which is a completely different issue. I personally think it's garbage and I think I've made a case.
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Old 10-22-2010, 09:30 PM
 
59,471 posts, read 46,452,682 times
Reputation: 36877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocontengencies View Post
I don't think the government needs this money in order to pay for the services. They waste much of what they get their hands on and take way more than is needed to run a country and provide. It isn't about providing services. It is a means of government control. Just like Obama care.
I like the color purple and chocolate chip cookies.

Now can we get back to the topic?
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Old 10-23-2010, 04:03 AM
 
Location: Ohio
22,798 posts, read 16,018,556 times
Reputation: 19288
Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
How can the town keep relying on the same 1200 households to keep paying for their budgetary inefficiencies and overblown school budgets?? 35% of residents in my town are elderly on fixed incomes. Will they be forced out of their homes by the banks that now have the power to foreclose based on unpaid taxes?
Here's a novel idea: Do away with the town government.

It the crap-hole county I'm staying in, there are 21 school districts.

18 of those school districts have 1 freaking high school, and two of the districts have a whopping two high schools.

Can you say "redundancy?"

Do they really need 18 superintendents, and 18 assistant superintendents, and 18 deputy superintendents and 18 of everything else?

The school budgets can be brought into balance and property taxes rolled back if they would cancel the multi-million dollar IT contracts and get rid of the computers.

The pay those administrators gets is worth about 3-4 teachers, and there's Oblala giving away $10 Billion to buy teacher's votes.

This county has 49 local governments. That means 49 mayors, 49 vice-mayors, 49 deputy mayors, 49 city councils, 49 fire departments, 49 police departments, 49 maintenance departments etc etc etc.

They don't need it. All but 3 of those 49 local governments are villages. That means they have less than 20,000 people. There's nothing wrong with sharing services, merging services, combining services, or even contracting out services in order to eliminate the redundancy and operate more efficiently.

Yes, people will lose their jobs, but it is not my responsibility to provide people with government jobs that have outrageous benefits and even more outrageous retirement benefits. That's their responsibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
If the last override that was attempted in my town had gone through, my taxes would have risen in one fell swoop by 33%.
All those retired people? They can't turn off the damn TV for 5 minutes and go circulate petitions to put a measure on the ballot and vote on it?

You can hold an election almost any time you want at the local and state levels.

Heck, they can sit at home and surf the internet to learn how to set up a re-call election and vote out the current city council, but then that would probably take away time from gambling at PokerTown.com.
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Old 10-23-2010, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 20,105,251 times
Reputation: 15725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
I agree 100% with what you are saying. However, the AMOUNT or INCREASE of property taxes has nothing to do with this thread.

Re-read the title....it's claiming "predatory tax collection" which is a completely different issue. I personally think it's garbage and I think I've made a case.

Predatory tax collection is happening to people who can no longer pay their taxes. It is directly relate to the amount or increase of those taxes, how is it not? Predatory tax collection is made possible by closing off all options for strapped taxpayers.

If the tax collection for unpaid taxes stays with the municipality, it serves several purposes---keeps the cities and towns directly in touch with their people, rather than abstracts them into some commodity that can be shipped off to an unknown bank, and it also preserves the state-optional programs already in place for easing taxes on low income seniors.

Shipping owed taxes off to an investment institution--well, I don't have to spell out all the implications of that (?)
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Old 10-23-2010, 07:48 AM
 
5,410 posts, read 10,358,253 times
Reputation: 4493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Here's a novel idea: Do away with the town government.

It the crap-hole county I'm staying in, there are 21 school districts.

18 of those school districts have 1 freaking high school, and two of the districts have a whopping two high schools.

Can you say "redundancy?"

Do they really need 18 superintendents, and 18 assistant superintendents, and 18 deputy superintendents and 18 of everything else?

The school budgets can be brought into balance and property taxes rolled back if they would cancel the multi-million dollar IT contracts and get rid of the computers.

The pay those administrators gets is worth about 3-4 teachers, and there's Oblala giving away $10 Billion to buy teacher's votes.

This county has 49 local governments. That means 49 mayors, 49 vice-mayors, 49 deputy mayors, 49 city councils, 49 fire departments, 49 police departments, 49 maintenance departments etc etc etc.

They don't need it. All but 3 of those 49 local governments are villages. That means they have less than 20,000 people. There's nothing wrong with sharing services, merging services, combining services, or even contracting out services in order to eliminate the redundancy and operate more efficiently.

Yes, people will lose their jobs, but it is not my responsibility to provide people with government jobs that have outrageous benefits and even more outrageous retirement benefits. That's their responsibility.



All those retired people? They can't turn off the damn TV for 5 minutes and go circulate petitions to put a measure on the ballot and vote on it?

You can hold an election almost any time you want at the local and state levels.

Heck, they can sit at home and surf the internet to learn how to set up a re-call election and vote out the current city council, but then that would probably take away time from gambling at PokerTown.com.
hmmmm, usually figure your insights have some good consideration . . . but on This One -- I think you totally missed it.

First -- Consolidation(s) (and the huge political machines it/they creates) Do Not make taxes go down.

Second -- Consolidation does not reduce the typical Admin Model. They just create more and more layers.

Third -- And this is the point you are TOTALLY missing. Putting huge piles of money together does not create something better, or more efficient. Sort of the opposite. It draws the crooks and thieves to it.

Can explain this to you deeper with some serious case studies, if you like, but I think you probably just missed the part about how it really turns out working in the real world.
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Old 10-23-2010, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 20,105,251 times
Reputation: 15725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Here's a novel idea: Do away with the town government.

It the crap-hole county I'm staying in, there are 21 school districts.

18 of those school districts have 1 freaking high school, and two of the districts have a whopping two high schools.

Can you say "redundancy?"

Do they really need 18 superintendents, and 18 assistant superintendents, and 18 deputy superintendents and 18 of everything else?

The school budgets can be brought into balance and property taxes rolled back if they would cancel the multi-million dollar IT contracts and get rid of the computers.

The pay those administrators gets is worth about 3-4 teachers, and there's Oblala giving away $10 Billion to buy teacher's votes.

This county has 49 local governments. That means 49 mayors, 49 vice-mayors, 49 deputy mayors, 49 city councils, 49 fire departments, 49 police departments, 49 maintenance departments etc etc etc.

They don't need it. All but 3 of those 49 local governments are villages. That means they have less than 20,000 people. There's nothing wrong with sharing services, merging services, combining services, or even contracting out services in order to eliminate the redundancy and operate more efficiently.

Yes, people will lose their jobs, but it is not my responsibility to provide people with government jobs that have outrageous benefits and even more outrageous retirement benefits. That's their responsibility.



All those retired people? They can't turn off the damn TV for 5 minutes and go circulate petitions to put a measure on the ballot and vote on it?

You can hold an election almost any time you want at the local and state levels.

Heck, they can sit at home and surf the internet to learn how to set up a re-call election and vote out the current city council, but then that would probably take away time from gambling at PokerTown.com
.

I love the whole top half of your post, my sentiments exactly.

As for your second point, I can tell you with no hesitation that "all those retired people" in my town were at the polls--mostly gray haired folks with walkers and wheelchairs, some brought by van. We had a "town forum" (laugh) at which one old farmer rose to object to the tax increase and was told to sit down by a moderator! The school administrators had versed students on what to say, one after another these kids went to the mic to say how their life, their studies, etc was going to get ruined if we didn't pass the override. I noted these kids were wearing pricey, trendy clothes and many were texting on their whatevers while waiting their turn to speak.

The "forum" organizers didn't want to hear this gent's comment about the plight of farmers on fixed incomes. Some other old timers set up huge dissent signs on their lawns and land along the highway.

The biggest surprise I've ever had in my life was that our town turned down the override. Everyone was sure it was going to pass. But it keeps rearing its head again. The town has taken away trash pickup, reduced street lights and police force. The school budget is almost 70% of the entire town budget. Tell me seniors on fixed incomes can foot the bill for that till they die?
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Old 10-23-2010, 09:05 AM
 
59,471 posts, read 46,452,682 times
Reputation: 36877
Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
Predatory tax collection is happening to people who can no longer pay their taxes. It is directly relate to the amount or increase of those taxes, how is it not? Predatory tax collection is made possible by closing off all options for strapped taxpayers.

If the tax collection for unpaid taxes stays with the municipality, it serves several purposes---keeps the cities and towns directly in touch with their people, rather than abstracts them into some commodity that can be shipped off to an unknown bank, and it also preserves the state-optional programs already in place for easing taxes on low income seniors.

Shipping owed taxes off to an investment institution--well, I don't have to spell out all the implications of that (?)
I think we both prefer that the cities etc. WORK WITH thier constituents and pass reasonable laws to facilitate people from being taxed out of their homes. This is nothing new and went on extensively in CA a number of decades ago just to give one example.

However, in some cases sending a debt to collections is just what must be done.

The alternative, once you have an unworkable situation is to have ADDITIONAL government workers (and costs) put on the people that pay thier property taxes in order to collect from the people that aren't paying. Seriously, I am very confused how you can be all "smaller government" and don't spend spend spend but here you are suggesting more services (collections) to put the costs of collection on you and me instead of the non-paying party.

I mean, let's say I owe you $400 and basically won't pay you back....are you going to be mean and resort to predatory collection or do the right thing and just give me some more money because I obviously need it?

Oh well, the point is moot. Pay your bills and watch the politicians who are glad to spend your money to make their life easier.
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Old 10-23-2010, 09:09 AM
 
59,471 posts, read 46,452,682 times
Reputation: 36877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
hmmmm, usually figure your insights have some good consideration . . . but on This One -- I think you totally missed it.

First -- Consolidation(s) (and the huge political machines it/they creates) Do Not make taxes go down.

Second -- Consolidation does not reduce the typical Admin Model. They just create more and more layers.

Third -- And this is the point you are TOTALLY missing. Putting huge piles of money together does not create something better, or more efficient. Sort of the opposite. It draws the crooks and thieves to it.

Can explain this to you deeper with some serious case studies, if you like, but I think you probably just missed the part about how it really turns out working in the real world.
All I can say is thank god I don't live in Chicago anymore. Nothing like paying huge property taxes and day after day read stories about how all the politically connected guys have ghost jobs for family, lucrative business contracts, sidewalks replaced on thier properties for free.....and the elections there are less free than in China....one party rule, all hail the king and his fellow nobles.
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