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Old 03-09-2011, 09:08 PM
 
14,339 posts, read 14,158,344 times
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Quote:
There's no poverty in Appalachia. I was just there. I have relatives that live in Rose Hill, Virginia, Mary Helen, Kentucky, Coal Good, Kentucky and elsewhere.

Those people can move their asses anywhere they want in the US. They just have to want to, but they don't, so excuse me if I don't get all bleary eyed about self-inflicted, um, "poverty."
One thing that people who state that the "poor can just move to get a job" fail to consider is the economic cost of moving and relocating. You have to have a place to live. Try and get a job without having an address for the personnel department when you start work. You have transportation costs, apartment rental costs, and the costs of setting up at least a cell phone so that you can receive messages from your employer. None of this is for free.



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Yes, the difference is several hundred thousand federal employees in the US Department of Health & Human Services whose very jobs depends on playing word games, semantics, and numbers games to ensure they continue to have a job (with outrageously ridiculous pay and benefits).

My function on this Planet is not to subsidize other people's life-styles. The so-called "poverty" thing is a life-style issue, not one of meeting basic needs.
Again, you've made assumption. In the Fairy Castle World in which you live, no one apparently ever gets an illness like cancer or heart disease. Nor are they run over in a car accident by a drunk driver with no insurance. In the real world people these events occur and often devastate people who have had a middle class lifestyle for years.



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Recognition? You can't get past that because there is no poverty, and fortunately millions of people like me recognize that there is no poverty.
Only a blind man could fail to see that. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.


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Basic needs, food, clothing and shelter are being met. So long as that is the case, there is no poverty. In the few exceptions where those conditions are not being met, it is self-inflicted poverty.

As far as "will" I don't care. It's about reality, and the reality is that if you give an idiotic moron $1 Million in a few months you'll have a bankrupt idiotic moron in, um, "poverty" again.

You want me to hold people's hands through every second of their life? Then you need to start paying me. A lot of money. A lot.
Here we have a run-off at the mouth polemic. No one has talked about giving a poor person a million dollars and you know it.



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Well fortunately for your there's another 1.6 Million in projected foreclosures this year.

As I have said repeatedly, the world is changing (for the better) and your way of life is over and your standard of living is going to continue to decline, so you had best accept the new reality and start learning how to deal with it. If you're going to waste your time whining and crying and fretting and fussing over stupid people who are not in poverty, then you're going to end up getting lost in the shuffle.
I pray the world you seem to desire does not devolve into violent fighting between the "haves and have nots". Its happened a few times before. You may have heard of the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution. We aren't there yet. However, this kind of attitude could get us there.



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Why would I want to? It's CBS. CBS has no credibility and you can't trust anything they report. That wouldn't be so bad, except that CBS also refuses to report things that people really need to know. A bogus claim that 25% of children are living in "poverty" is not something that people need to know.
I really should stop replying at this point. Anyone who discounts a story solely because CBS produced it really can't conduct a logical argument. I'm starting to understand why this is all going over your head.


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No the primary misfortune is general stupidity.

You need to plan for "job loss" and that means if you don't have 6 months of savings in the bank to cover every single one of your expenses, then you don't do it.

That means 6 months worth of rent/mortgage, utiliies, food, car payments for every car they have, auto insurance, home insurance, property taxes, 6 months of payments for every credit card they have, and for all services like cable/satellite, cell, phone etc.
Most people should have more saved up than they do. You've finally said something I sort of agree with. The problem is that you can't save for every contingency. You'd have no money for food, shelter, and clothing on a day-to-day basis. People cannot predict getting ill with cancer, being hit by a bus while they are in a crosswalk, or a horde of other misfortunes that routinely occur. The single greatest cause of bankruptcy in this country are medical expenses. Many of these people even had health insurance. Did you know that? Its just that the health insurance had such high deductibles that it didn't cover thousands of dollars worth of medical expenses.


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If that means you need $32,000 to cover 6 months of expenses, then guess, what? You put $32,000 in the bank.

Let's see that would be a gross income of about $48,000 wouldn't it? I hate to break the news to you. That figure is larger than the average per capita income in this country. There are states where that is a higher income than what 2/3's of the families live on.


Quote:
And that means if you have to quit eating out 38 times per week and quit paying $300/month to rent or buy DVDs or go to the cinema show, then that is what you do.
"If only those awful poor people would stop drinking beer and goofing off all would be well". Sorry, in a country with 9% unemployment there are plenty of people looking for extra work (or any job at all) who can't find it. You really live in a world of stereotypes and cliches' don't you?

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It's part and parcel of a concept called "making a short-term sacrifice to obtain a long term benefit."

Those people refused to make any sacrifices whatsoever, and that's why they are screwed every which way but loose. Hopefully, they will learn something, but I seriously doubt it.
It borders on outrageous the way you judge every single person who has hit on hard times in this country. Perhaps, I'd be best to let your generalizations and hyperbole stand on their own.


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But they weren't hunting out-of-state or out-of-country. Got to look at the big picture and think outside the box.
So, you now claim the unemployed are obligated to leave America to look for work? Got to admit that's one I haven't heard. You get an A for originality and an F for practicality. Did you read what I said above about the costs of relocating?


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Well then child protective services should remove those children from the families. There is no excuse whatsoever to not have food. They're eligible for food stamps. There are food pantries and other private groups that provide food assistance.
Since humanity and decency mean nothing to you, let's just look at this in terms of pure practicality. All those kids who are removed from their homes have to be fed and clothed. Who do you think pays for that? You do. I do. We all pay through our taxes. Keeping these families together--in most cases--probably actually saves the taxpayers some money.


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They can rent an apartment. If they can't then that raises the issue that one or both parents have felony convictions for violence or drug abuse including possession and sale with intent to distribute, which might preclude them from renting some apartments, and that would mostly be in large apartment complexes, or apartments that are owned by property management companies.

Did CBS check their criminal histories? It don't cost nothing to do that. If CBS didn't, then that is typical of the sloppy reporting CBS does.
You call CBS sloppy after the horde of unsupported generalizations you've made in this rant? "Pot, this is the kettle, I'm calling you black"

Again, I really shouldn't bother with you. I don't think you've absorbed anything anyone here has said.

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What about family? The parents have mothers and fathers right? So that is at least two alternative places to stay, and being America, it's likely that one (or both) parents have a mother/step-father and father/step-mother. They can move in with them. Or with their siblings, aunts/uncles, cousins. If they're in another State, then they can sell some of their belongings for Greyhound Bus tickets to get there.
Don't assume everyone has family they can move in with. I come from a very small family. My father is dead. My mother is elderly and disabled. My one 60 year old sister is financially in no position to take my wife, myself, and my kids in. There are people in this country who really are on their own.


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Then you need to make choices. Choose wisely. You cannot save everyone and trying to do so will only make things worse. People fail. That's what they do and they do it second best only to dying.
I agree there are some people so hopeless they probably can't be helped. To suggest that everyone fits into this category is not only wrong, but harmful to all our self interest. If the unemployed can be returned to work than they pay taxes too. They become gainful members of society helping to pay for defense, schools, and essential services in society.


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You ought to consider that constitutionally speaking, there is nothing that guarantees US Citizenship permanently. In fact, there is historical precedent for revoking the citizenship of natural born Americans.

You might want to seriously consider "pulling a Castro," revoke the citizenship of 3 time felony offenders and kick their ass out of the country to free up some money to help those who are trying to help themselves.

And the perennial welfare pukes, give them a passport and a one-way plane ticket to the country of their choice.

You don't know what you are talking about which is on par with the rest of your post. Unless someone lies in the process of acquiring citizenship, it cannot be taken from them. I include murders on death row in this statement.

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No kidding. I live in Over-the-Rhine about 200 feet from what was until 6 months ago the deadliest street in the USA. I see those kids nearly every day walking to the market or riding the bus to the VA hospital. They're all decked out in the latest hip-hop fashions, $200 Nike shoes, iPods, cell-phones and tons of gold "gangsta" chains.

The price of those hip-hop pants alone is my clothing budget for 3 years, so again, excuse me if I don't get all misty-eyed about the plight of the so-called "impoverished."
More hype that has nothing to do with the poverty that families who have lost their jobs have experienced.

Real poverty exists in this country. You'd know that if you did anything but read cheap dime novels by Ayn Rand.

Last edited by markg91359; 03-09-2011 at 10:09 PM..
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:13 PM
 
14,339 posts, read 14,158,344 times
Reputation: 45609
Quote:
Great replies! I was raised by immigrant parents that started from washing cars, working in clothing factories, driving a taxi, whatever it took to raise us.

Sadly, that spirit of resiliency has diminshed in our country. I just saw a great documentary by History Channel. I bought it. It is entitled "America, the History of Us. It was great! It shows how as a nation we were built by people that in hard times simply picked up and moved somewhere else if necessary. They did whatever it took to make it during the Great Depression, the Dust Bowl, end other times in our history.

Today? The government is not giving me enough!, take care.
Great replies huh? I'm thinking of the irony of a guy who spent most of his working life in the military getting his health care and other bennies who worries so much about "socialism".
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 21,921,812 times
Reputation: 15773
"You'd know that if you did anything but read cheap dime novels by Ayn Rand."


Ah, I think you nailed it...I forgot about her!
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Up North
3,426 posts, read 8,883,150 times
Reputation: 3126
My father came of age during the Great Depression and I can say that he was extremely frugal, I mean unlike anyone I know today. He also owned his own successful business in an upscale location but lived in the projects-which I find strange, I was young when he passed. When he passed away my mother sold his biz and lived off of that money for a very long time.
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Old 03-10-2011, 04:55 AM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 21,921,812 times
Reputation: 15773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pear Martini View Post
My father came of age during the Great Depression and I can say that he was extremely frugal, I mean unlike anyone I know today. He also owned his own successful business in an upscale location but lived in the projects-which I find strange, I was young when he passed. When he passed away my mother sold his biz and lived off of that money for a very long time.
Yes, the people of the Depression generation were for the most part extremely frugal. Bringing this up is a common reaction to the current plight of those losing everything today.

But we should not assume that all those who are falling out of the middle class into the lower class today are NOT frugal, that they are spendthrifts who stupidly didn't prepare for a rainy day. It takes years to save and days to deplete savings. When one has a family, all the faster. Many families have gone from two cars to one, from eating steak to eating rice and beans, and to food pantries and food stamps. Many have had to walk away from their home, be evicted, live with family, in a motel, or at a shelter, often with kids in tow. What middle class person formerly employed would elect to do that unless it is out of necessity?? One of our favorite posters here claims that to live in poverty is a lifestyle choice. That's BS.
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Old 03-10-2011, 06:50 AM
 
8,263 posts, read 12,166,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
Many families have gone from two cars to one
According to recent statistics on automobile sales I'd say many families have gone from one car to two as well, or at least gotten newer ones.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:49 AM
 
Location: North Texas
24,561 posts, read 40,147,614 times
Reputation: 28547
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
I have a question for everybody. I tried to give a positive reputation to the message above and I got a message that I had to distribute that around before giving him that. Is this forum become socialist also? I now have to make everybody feel good before I give what I believe is a deserving reputation? Anyone know? Please I ask someone explain this to me, take care.
Huh? It has been that way ever since I joined which was back in 2009, I think.
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Old 03-10-2011, 12:42 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,795 posts, read 7,264,647 times
Reputation: 5194
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale View Post
Another "be careful" warning.

I will NEVER be in that situation.

Now, on to the stats....you can live on $22,000 a year. You just need to live within your means.

For every person that feels they have a "right" to something, there is someone else who has the "responsibility" to pay for it.

I for one am tired of it.
Really, perhaps you should look at the percentage of people who have gotten into that "situation" due to illness or accident.
It is a pretty confident call to say you will never be sick or have a terrible accident.
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,539 posts, read 21,189,788 times
Reputation: 16936
Quote:
Originally Posted by plaidmom View Post
Hellloo, upper-bracket taxpayers: want the poor to "get a job"?

Guess what they need? Yep a PHONE NUMBER. Also sometimes, clean professional clothing.



Next time you feel like whining and complaining about your taxes, put a jobless/homeless person on your cell-phone plan instead. It's like what? $5 bucks per month??? Your morning latte cost's more than that! Think of the money you'll save long-term if they find a job. You don't have to enable texting or web access if you cannot afford it.

Or does it just feel better to whine and complain and do nothing
and feel sanctimonious, superior, and entitled?
This is a very important point. It's not just jobs. If your getting help from a program you need to be able to be reached. It's being able to keep contact with the other human beings that mean something to you, and the psychological gain is invaluable from breaking the isolation.

If you can't get an apartment, and you can eek out enough for a rented room, at least you have an address. But the phone problem is that most people today don't want to share the house phone or with multiple roomates, if a potential employer gets a roomate snapping "they aren't home, click" when they call they won't be calling back. Or if the phone is constantly in use and just never answered. Been there, could write lots more on the subject.

And its important if your looking for a job to be able to look further than your local only emergency phone. Cells don't care if its across the street or two states away. More option equal more possibilities.
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,539 posts, read 21,189,788 times
Reputation: 16936
Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
Yes, the people of the Depression generation were for the most part extremely frugal. Bringing this up is a common reaction to the current plight of those losing everything today.

But we should not assume that all those who are falling out of the middle class into the lower class today are NOT frugal, that they are spendthrifts who stupidly didn't prepare for a rainy day. It takes years to save and days to deplete savings. When one has a family, all the faster. Many families have gone from two cars to one, from eating steak to eating rice and beans, and to food pantries and food stamps. Many have had to walk away from their home, be evicted, live with family, in a motel, or at a shelter, often with kids in tow. What middle class person formerly employed would elect to do that unless it is out of necessity?? One of our favorite posters here claims that to live in poverty is a lifestyle choice. That's BS.
I suspect that those who end up long term poor will appreciate what the generation that lived through the great depression learned. The problem is that while you can pass on values, you don't pass on the real experience. My parents were careful with money and never used credit except for buying the house. My dad even insisted on paying for a car with cash. I got habits from my mom which seemed odd to some, keeping a good stock of groceries and a full refigeratior, for instance, just in case. But it paid off. Just doing as your used to as an example does not teach without the experience.

A lot of survivors of the Great Depression also wanted their kids to have what they didn't. My generation got a lot of stuff. Not the amount poured on succeding generations, but we were rewarded by being the children of those who didn't have as much, since they needed to give. I think the unconsious lesson was the giving not the rest. But the families who are barely hanging on or have crashed below will be teaching a different lesson.

Largely due to health problems, I've lived "below" for a long time. I cope well now. It's not bad to learn. But if you gave me a choice, I'd go for enough to not worry about what's in the change jar. For me that would be the difference if I didn't need to know.

But today it is vastly different because we do have help, if your willing to jump through the hoops and allow yourself to be humiliated. But as a balance, when the most common "new" job is MacDees clerk in a world where that won't support a single person let alone a family we are looking at a serious shift in our culture where a lot of the people who now find themselves poor will continue to be for a long time. And so might their children if they aren't very lucky. The "boomer" generation did not *all* turn into yuppies, and a lot never were able to have what mom and dad did. But I suspect this will become the norm as fewer and fewer well paying jobs exist and more and more minimum wage ones fill in the gap.

Yes, people will save, but if you don't have anything left when the basic needs are met, then how do you? We're not looking at a "downturn" here but a major restructuring which will leave a lot of people in the dust.
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