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Being that labor is such a small part of the equation anymore in the typical production manufacturing setting, doesn't it stand to reason that they are leaving due in part to factors OTHER than RTW? Honestly, for the typical production manufacturing job, I could train a monkey to perform most of the duties. So much of the typical production work involved 0 skill due to technology. There is no bargaining power left when you could train a nitwit to perform the duties of the job. That doesn't mean unions can never retain some appeal with the masses.
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Labor is one of the larger controllable factors in cost control in mfg, and by labor, I am talking fully loaded labor costs with benefits. Now its a trifecta as I said before as most Southern RTW states also offer low property taxes and utilities, too.
The mistake you are making is thinking labor with benes is small, for it is likely just 10-15 percent of all costs. What you are forgetting is raw material costs cannot be controlled much, as if one uses plastics, oil guides it. If brass, copper markets guide it. So wiping out what one cannot control in mfg gets one down to most often 50 percent of cost at most. Viewed in that proper context, labor becomes 10-15 of 50 percent, or 20-30 percent of all controllable costs.
Labor is one of the larger controllable factors in cost control in mfg, and by labor, I am talking fully loaded labor costs with benefits. Now its a trifecta as I said before as most Southern RTW states also offer low property taxes and utilities, too.
The mistake you are making is thinking labor with benes is small, for it is likely just 10-15 percent of all costs. What you are forgetting is raw material costs cannot be controlled much, as if one uses plastics, oil guides it. If brass, copper markets guide it. So wiping out what one cannot control in mfg gets one down to most often 50 percent of cost at most. Viewed in that proper context, labor becomes 10-15 of 50 percent, or 20-30 percent of all controllable costs.
I don't think it's small. I think it's considerably small-er than 30 years ago when you had 1 worker cutting sheet metal blanks and deburring, one worker pushing the green button for a press, and another running the sheet metal blanks through the bandsaw. Now, you have one worker whose sole responsibility is making sure the press line is well stocked with sheet metal blanks. These new automated lines, which are dominating the auto plants in the north, require very little in the way of labor input. $15/hr here in the Chicago area last time I checked. Toyota has a unit labor cost of around $51/hr, which of course is non union, and primarily in the south. Of course, that is not far off from the the labor unit costs of the big three.
And you can try to control certain factors all you want. You can go to China and deal with hectic supply lines and hordes of quality issues. They will steal your product design in the end and sell it for 1/2 value, but the results will be good for the year prior. You can try to order the cheapest steel on the market only to have it rejected by the customer for not being the type of steel the supplier said it was. Heck, my last job the only steel we would order was German steel, made by union laborers of course. They were the only ones who could guarantee it was fine ground per our specifications, and MEAN it, so as not to screw up our expensive guide bushings. Expensive as hell, but when a half a million dollar machine generating interest is sitting idle while being serviced by a $500/hr service tech, you weigh the costs vs potential loss. Had no shortage of customers coming in, since we were turning down 1/2 the work every month. If the south was the end all, be all, all manufacturing would have gone down there. There is a reason we are busy as ever up here.
I've told you the wages at many of the busy shops up here. Customers aren't coming looking for the cheapest labor force possible, or best price even. They are coming because they want German quality, made right here in the states. Your not going to get that from a $9/hr laborer in the south. I've tried to apply to shops in the south when things looked bad. All they will offer me is $10/hr. I can make double that and not have to make the expensive move. All I ever hear about here in the north is the impending shortage of skilled workers. We have all the cheap laborers we want up here in the north. The illegals can make a few bucks more here, so they eventually migrate. But when it comes to the men and women making the work, we also know you've got to pay a fair buck to get the quality the customer is demanding. They will pay for it as long as you deliver. For one reason or another, they don't appear to be accepting bids down south. All I ever hear from the customers is, "I don't care what it costs anymore, just get it done right."
But really, the topic of manufacturing in America and union representation is pointless. Union representation in manufacturing is so minimal anymore, it's not even a valid example. I have not belonged to one since 2006. To me, the unskilled workers are the ones who benefit the most. They protect them from the hordes of invading illegals that will gladly work for $9/hr. They are at least given the opportunity to enter the skilled trades side of the profession, the way I did. It is no surprise that the decline in union representation in manufacturing has coincided with the increased concern of a shortage of skilled workers. For years, it WAS the union that supplied the skilled workers. The non union shops scooped them up when the unions lost power. But it's much like the take a penny, leave a penny cup. Except the non union shops kept taking the pennies, while never putting one back in. In the end, the U.S. will probably specialize in low value assembly and button pushing work, while it will be Germany, Switzerland, Scandanavian countries and even Canada accumulating all the high value work. Those countries knew the value of paying a fair wage, and paying it forward for the next generation of skilled workers. All the U.S. knew how to do was marginalize and underbid until owners went broke, workers told their kids not to bother with the work, and manufacturing went elsewhere. We can't underbid China, and we aren't skilled or smart enough to take the work from Germany. We essentially p***ed away our heavy manufacturing base, and all the benefits it once provided. Now we have a bloated roulette wheel based economy centered around gambling on risky investments and wiping old peoples butts, and oh yes, being fat and unproductive. That's what your left with.
But for many of us left in the north, things have been great. So many shops were wiped out in the perpetual flush down the bidding toilet that the competition is thinner than ever. It has NEVER been easier to find work if your a skilled worker. Heck, many shops are even training. The thing that is emphasized the most... Do the job right the first time, otherwise the customer will go elsewhere. Seems a lot of them have, because we are getting customers from all around, including the south. Something tells me RTW status is simply not as important as one might think. Sure, if your looking for someone to do a rivet gun job, chase the cheapest worker. Good riddance, better there than here, the state will end up supporting them for what their wage will be. Quality is always worth paying more for, even in 2012.
Actually andywire, I'm not sure the skilled worker supposed shortage will ever occur. Its based on median age now, but will automation short circuit the need in 10 years? In other words, is the shortage based on stagnant requirements vs 2012?
But if it occurs, most of the blame is people overshifted. Its a knowledge economy now, and we still do not rank atop global college grad rates, but we have millions who formerly would have gone the skiled blue collar labor route who opted instead for college.
Actually andywire, I'm not sure the skilled worker supposed shortage will ever occur. Its based on median age now, but will automation short circuit the need in 10 years? In other words, is the shortage based on stagnant requirements vs 2012?
You need people to program the machines, write the codes or use CAD/CAM, know the proper speeds and feeds for a wide array of materials, understand the principles of metallurgy, service the equipment, build the machines, the list goes on. You have repair work that can not be automated. You you prototype and low volume work that is not profitable to automate. You need people to design the tooling, build the dies, stamps, benders, etc. You need people to build the high precision molds that are still built mostly in the United States. You still need maintanence crews who can fix things Johnny on the spot when they break, and be able to do it efficiently. Most of this type of work requires years of dedication and learning. Most of this is not book learning, but paid on the job learning. It takes a smart, keen, interested young person who is willing to commit their life to learning to master this stuff. When I say we are loosing the skills... When something needs to be heat treated on the spot, the engineer says send it to the heat treat plant. The skilled worker gets a can of oil and a torch. That is what were loosing. How often will you need that type of skill? Not very often. It's the times that you do that count, and the sheer magnitude of other skills similar to that, which are not being passed down. This is how we differ from countries that actually get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtn
But if it occurs, most of the blame is people overshifted. Its a knowledge economy now, and we still do not rank atop global college grad rates, but we have millions who formerly would have gone the skiled blue collar labor route who opted instead for college.
We are turning into a service based economy. When we run out of money to BUY, because we can no longer PRODUCE, who knows what will follow. If we were becoming a knowledge based economy, skilled blue collar workers would be just as in demand as ever. Have you ever read Machinerys Handbook? I don't have it in front of my, but it's around 2800 pages of KNOWLEDGE. Yes, I had to read it during my apprenticeship. It was boring at the time, but I have to refer to it often. NOBODY is going to read that damn book for the southern non union rate of $8/hr. That is why they don't know the difference between and worm gear and an acme thread. That is also why we cannot compete with real 1st world nations that have been taking our best paying work for decades, while we try to bid for marti gras bead jobs. Because we simply lack the skilled and knowledgeable workforce to do it. Regardless, this is the stuff that has kept me fed and warm at night, and I thank god I had the exposure to it. I have no clue where I would be without it. It is a very scary time to not have a skill to fall back on.
But I do see glimmers of hope. Shops in the north are worried. They are slowly training. One local shop around here I know of just took an apprentice, and the owner is paying him $15/hr with great bennies. He takes blue prints home every night, and is assigned chapters to read out of "the bible". He is being trained to be a skilled worker, and being paid more than many of these unfortunate college grads are getting today. Starting fresh out of highschool the way I did. Small victories like that give me hope. Shops like the one he is at are getting bombarded with orders, customers are literally waiting outside till the shop opens with work that needs done yesterday.
And if we want to achieve top status in regards to graduating post secondary students, that's fine. Except, we need a reward for that achievement. Mounting debt with 50% under/unemployment is not it. Coupled with ever rising tuition hikes, while middle class families are struggling more every year, we are going to slip further down the ladder. And what is a "knowlege" based economy? Are you producing something with that knowledge? Are you creating something tangible? What will stop employers from seeking the lowest bidder and going to slave wage nations? Are they not capable of "knowledge"? At least with manufacturing, you have shipping costs and supply chains to contend with, which keeps work home, and has been bringing back more work than ever.
It's not the knowledge that counts. It's what you do with it, and how efficiently you can get it done. In this country, we don't have a clue what will be in demand tomorrow, were just taking shots in the dark anymore. We are still the number 1 manufacturing power in the world. Through thick and thin, it has remained with us. It's been heavily regulated, taxed to death, kicked around like the red headed step child, neglected, marginalized, and finally starved of the skilled workers needed to keep the wheels greased. More work for me, until we completely loose the infrastructure to sustain it.
I worry about my generation. They're getting shoveled down the s*** river to nowhere. All we are creating is more debt for wallstreet thugs, who contribute nothing to society, to bet on. Someone is going to have to pay, and it's anyone lucky enough to have a job capable of paying taxes. I have no clue what major industry can sustain the number of jobs needed. It better hurry up and get here, cause we need it more than ever.
I am going to answer the original question as to why I "hate" them using my experience with unions. Back in the 70's I worked for a large insurance company in Chicago. We were not union. Chicago is a union town. Every once in awhile, union reps would pass flyers along to the employees telling us how bad we had it and how good they would make it. The trouble was they were stupid. The benefits they offered where no better and in some cases worse than what we were being given by our employer.
They didn't take the trouble to see what may really have tempted us to join, all we got was a lot of rhetoric. The company I worked for was smart. They would read the material given out by the union too. They would have meetings with the employees, ask if there was anything the union offered we felt we were missing and after voicing our opinions, they almost always gave us these things. We did not need the union. We had employee representatives who acted in the same manner as union reps in our HR department to whom we could voice complaints if we had them.
The union people accosting the employees on the street were hostile, militant and could not believe we did better negotiating with our employer ourselves than we would through them. They couldn't understand we didn't want or need them as the middle man and again they offered us nothing we couldn't get without them.
Now fast forward to the 90's. Different city, different job. I worked for a TPA (Third Party Administrator) in Portland that paid health insurance benefits for various union trusts. In order to work there, the employees had to join a union themselves. While working with the various unions I ran into corruption, cronyism, favoritism and constant rip-offs of the rank and file. The claims adjusters in my office were ordered to pay claims which were not legitimate by the union reps. The union bigwigs and their cronies got benefits for which they were not entitled while the rank-and-file had to stick to the policies.
The regular union members got little representation when a problem with their employers arose. The shop stewards would try, but they at best could only get half-hearted support from the union repsresentatives whose job it was supposed to be to protect them.
As for my own union, our union representative played golf with our office manager. The rep got him and his family on our health plan for which he did not pay due as the rest of us did. Those benefits were supposed to be for union members only.
The worst happening was when it was discovered that the invetment company the union used had been stealing our 401k, pensions and other savings through the union via a ponzi scheme. This affected four or five states and was bigger than Enron in that it involved many more people.
Prior to the discovery, union members tried to warn the union something was up. They begged them to investigate. The union kept putting them off and finally said they would but didn't find anything when that happened. That was probably because some of them were in on the swindle.
So I lost 12 years worth of 401k money. Others lost more. The union, which failed to protect us took the heat big time. All of the union leaders, representatives and all the higher ups resigned whether guilty or not. We will never know since by resigning they were immune from prosecution.
I have worked for various corporations. I worked with many unions during this job. There is no doubt what-so-ever that by far, the unions were more corrupt, greedy and dishonest than any of the corporations. That's my experience with unions. In my years of dealing with them I saw very little good and a lot of bad being done by them. There may be good ones out there, but I have never seen them.
I have worked for various corporations. I worked with many unions during this job. There is no doubt what-so-ever that by far, the unions were more corrupt, greedy and dishonest than any of the corporations. That's my experience with unions. In my years of dealing with them I saw very little good and a lot of bad being done by them. There may be good ones out there, but I have never seen them.
Jertheber, where you at?
If the union trees are getting chopped down in the city-data forest, do they make a sound if a union-lover is not there to hear it?
Why not? It's an easy way to make people fight against their own rights. Still reminds me of the same joke.
"A CEO, a Tea Party and a Union Worker sit down at a table. In the middle of the table is a plate with 12 chocolate chip cookies on it. The CEO grabs 11 cookies and turns to the Tea Party and says, "You'd better be careful," nodding to the Union Worker, "that guy's trying to take your cookie.""
Attending a union convention in Las Vegas a union lighting man decides to visit a bordello. He goes into the first place, the ladies are lovely, and he asks the Madam, "Is this a union establishment?"
"Why, no, it isn't," the Madam replies.
"Well," the Union Man asks, "what percentage of the take goes to the girl?"
"We split the money, 20 percent to the girl and 80 percent to the house."
Feeling that wasn't a fair split the man left and went to another establishment. Again he asked the same questions and received a similar response. Although not a union house the split rate at this one was 30 percent to the girl and 70 percent to the house.
He continued his trek for some time until, finally, he came upon a Union House. "That's wonderful," he says to the Madam, "and what's the split?"
"We give 80 percent to the girl and keep just 20 percent for the house."
The Man is overjoyed. "Fantastic," he says, finally satisfied. Immediately he spots an attractive young blonde and indicates her to the Madam. "I'd like to have her please," he declares.
"Oh, I'm sure you would," the Madam replies, but she instead redirects him to an aging, overweight woman in the corner, "But I'm afraid Ethel here has seniority."
A man walks down the road, but stops at a peculiar sight. Two union guys are working by the side of the road, but the first is simply digging holes while the second is filling them up. Curiousity gets the best of the walker, so he asks the men what they are doing.
"We're a post-hole crew," says the first.
"But what about the posts?"
The other union guy answers, "we're a three man crew -- Bob digs the holes, I fill them, and Charlie puts the posts in, but he's out sick today."
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I'd laugh, but this is too true to be funny.
Finally, executive staff of the unions are the worst kind of parasites. A bunch of "fat cats" living high off the avails of their union workers paying out dues. Ever look at the salaries of union execs who in the scheme of things don't do much?
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