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Old 07-15-2011, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,084 posts, read 12,032,988 times
Reputation: 4125

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Quote:
Originally Posted by modeerf View Post
Knowledge is not equal to wisdom.

And the dollar is going to collapse. When? good question...
Believing what some one says because you already think a similar thing is true, without any consideration of the basis of what is used to support it, is not wisdom or knowledge in any sense.

It's actually a form of willful ignorance. A person is fully aware that a critical evaluation of the similar subject would bring into view the already very tenuous (if it exists) logic used to shore up one's own belief. This causes cognitive dissidence in knowing there's not a good sound basis, but wanting to keep that core belief because it's comfortable.
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Old 07-15-2011, 07:42 PM
 
3,335 posts, read 2,979,275 times
Reputation: 921
Quote:
Originally Posted by subsound View Post
Believing what some one says because you already think a similar thing is true, without any consideration of the basis of what is used to support it, is not wisdom or knowledge in any sense.
I haven't said i believe what someone said. What extra ordinary consideration is necessary in the current economic crisis?
Seems pretty obvious our unbridled quest for wealth. Loving money more than people, will cause a divide that will bring us down.

Or are we unique to every other great nation that has fallen under it's own debt weight.
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Old 07-16-2011, 12:13 AM
 
Location: White Rock BC
393 posts, read 594,792 times
Reputation: 750
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Looked it up.........................it's on page 8 of that "folly of raising the debt ceiling thread" for those who would like to read it or for anyone who knows how to send it to this thread as that is beyond my limited abilities.
Could someone do this for me ...........if it's possible, thanks.
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Old 07-16-2011, 09:44 AM
 
3,335 posts, read 2,979,275 times
Reputation: 921
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Could someone do this for me ...........if it's possible, thanks.
It's a truly pathetic state of affairs how in just 15 years you have gone from the world's lone economic and political superpower to a national on the edge of bankruptcy.
This left vs right, Dem vs Rep is causing your country to implode. I find it shocking how anyone cannot see the gravity of the situation but most Americans have this "it's different here" or "this is America so we will be alright" mentality.
Anyone who think that the US can get itself out of this mess by not having huge spending cuts and massive tax increases is dellusional. You have a private bank { the Federal Reserve is no more federal than Federal Express} in charge of your monetary system, you have 5% of the world's population but account for 40% of the world's Defense {AKA Offensive} spending, your health care costs are more than twice the OECD average yet leave millions uninsured and even more under insured, you have massive trade and current account deficits, you have the largest gap between the rich and the poor in the Western world, a completely under funded Social Security system, you are printing money faster than the Weimer Republic, substandard infrastructure, inferior primary educational, complete political inertia, special interest influence that is beyond the obscene, governmental debt at 120% of GDP which is near Greek levels, a massive deficit with no end in sight, a housing sector that is a state of malaise, high household indebtedness, rising inflation {which is at 8% not the 2% quoted as it doesn't include fuel and most food products and is manipulated so Social Security increases are kept artificially low}, declining real wages, high unemployment and even higher underemployment, a corporate sector that rewards short term gain over long term sustainability, an over leveraged banking sector, rapidly declining international influence, and a pessemistic populace that are beginning to acknowledge that your best days are behind you.
This lunacy of being able just to tinker at the edges was an option a decade ago but now almost looks childish.
There must be metamorphic change at the basic levels to get your economy back on a sustainable level. That, first and foremost, means getting rid of your "Federal" Reserve so your private bankers do not control your monetary and hence economic institutions, a complete overhaul of your tax structure to one primarily VAT based to wipe out all the loopholes which only the wealthy enjoy, get rid of your oil and farming subsidies, review your entitlements to reflect an aging population and make it more means and needs based, a massive cut in your military on the order of at least 40%, closing of nearly all your overseas bases, free yourself of huge oil imports starting with cutting supplies from the Middle East, invest in education and physical infrastructure, invest in R&D and NASA so you don't have to piggy back on Russian space craft and, wait for it, INCREASE your interest rates by about 4% to slow inflation, strengthen your worthless dollar, and to stop this unsustainable notion that you can print your way out of this mess.
A damning inditment I know but your situation is both dire and immediate and small measures won't solve your monumental challenges.
Is this what you are wanting?
Good Post BTW
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Old 07-16-2011, 01:00 PM
 
701 posts, read 1,030,722 times
Reputation: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post

Recessions are beautiful....

...And contrary to what people want to believe, employment/unemployment is not the measuring stick of an healthy economy. If we apply the prevalent lunacy, then effectively the US has been in a depression since the 1925 recession that ultimately led to the Great Depression.

Wow, I thought your other comment was the stupidest I've ever seen. But this one tops it.

Unemployment is the single most important measure of a healthy economy, your utter delusion aside.

Last edited by qwerbilzak; 07-16-2011 at 01:15 PM..
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Old 07-16-2011, 01:21 PM
 
5,760 posts, read 11,519,082 times
Reputation: 4949
Just for a baseline . . . .

So we are maybe all sort of talking the same terms regarding "Collapse" -- did the Soviet Union "collapse?"

Things are starting to look a whole lot the same.

Over-extended on Endless Wars in Afghanistan, and other Occupations,
Cannot pay the bills for the Empire + Military + Domestic.
Brain-Dead Communist Party with a few fringe Extremists = DemoRepub Party + their extremes.
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Old 07-16-2011, 11:36 PM
 
Location: White Rock BC
393 posts, read 594,792 times
Reputation: 750
Modeerf.....................ya, that was the one and thank you.
I realize that it's a pretty damning message but everything that I said that was wrong with your economy was, unfortunatly, true.
As one of your northern friends I find it very upsetting to see what has happened to your great nation in such a remarkably short amount of time. Your problems are monumental and the solutions must also be drastic to try to reverse your economic and political decline. The troubles of your economy are a reflection of your most pressing social issues............the large and growing gap between the extremely wealthy and the rest of the citizenry. The established elites of Wall Street are literally pitting one class against the other and their influence on the Republicans and, to a lesser but still significant amount, the Democrats through obscene vote buying of your elected officials means the trend will only continue.
Your nation is on the edge and no one seems to be willing to take on the elites to stop it from going over the edge.
I really do fear for your country and things will get much, much worse.
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Old 07-17-2011, 05:12 AM
 
12,867 posts, read 14,882,498 times
Reputation: 4459
from the guardian:

The results will be catastrophic, argues JP Morgan chief executive Jamie Dimon – a warning repeated by Obama. The US government will have to start to wind down: soldiers' wages and public pensions alike will be suspended. But in the financial markets there will be mayhem. (end)

so living within your means would create world financial mayhem? would that imply that there is some fraud going on now? normally, wouldn't living within your means mean a reason to extend you credit or invest with you? what happens to the non-creditworthy normally?

who is zooming whom?

it seems to me that we have allowed scare tactics to bully us, and it looks like this one is going to be no different. we were told that we needed the wall street bailouts or the economy would actually collapse. every time we don't give the people at the top what they want they threaten us with dire economic consequences, and this is no different.
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Old 07-17-2011, 05:18 AM
 
12,867 posts, read 14,882,498 times
Reputation: 4459
Quote:
Originally Posted by subsound View Post
You are the Dunning-Kruger effect in real life.
i am not sure that i would take the definition of stupidity from people who don't know how to spell "realize". (or cognitive dissonance vs dissidence)


the reason i like this forum is that everyone expresses opinions and anyone else is able to come to their own conclusions, by analyzing all the facts and opinions presented, without someone coming on board and telling them that they are "stupid". we don't have to agree, but we don't have to insult each other either.


the truth is that we have never been at this point before in history, so all bets are still on the table. i wouldn't think (and this is just an opinion) that the US citizens would give up the dollar willingly to go to any other global currency. i would think that dollars would have value at least to US citizens.

i will add, though, that raising the debt ceiling and printing more dollars will likely result in increasing inflation, making those dollars worth less for anybody trying to use them. that is the ugly part of raising the debt ceiling-you devalue your currency each time you do it and you hurt the citizens, by FORCING them to pay more for food, fuel, clothing, electricity, etc.

Last edited by floridasandy; 07-17-2011 at 05:43 AM..
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Old 07-17-2011, 10:05 AM
 
3,335 posts, read 2,979,275 times
Reputation: 921
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Modeerf.....................ya, that was the one and thank you.
I realize that it's a pretty damning message but everything that I said that was wrong with your economy was, unfortunatly, true.
As one of your northern friends I find it very upsetting to see what has happened to your great nation in such a remarkably short amount of time. Your problems are monumental and the solutions must also be drastic to try to reverse your economic and political decline. The troubles of your economy are a reflection of your most pressing social issues............the large and growing gap between the extremely wealthy and the rest of the citizenry. The established elites of Wall Street are literally pitting one class against the other and their influence on the Republicans and, to a lesser but still significant amount, the Democrats through obscene vote buying of your elected officials means the trend will only continue.
Your nation is on the edge and no one seems to be willing to take on the elites to stop it from going over the edge.
I really do fear for your country and things will get much, much worse.
It is damning and the US is damned. It's progress has been stopped. It will bleed out to the whole world unfortunately.

We are fat, dumb and brainwashed in this country. We are failing like our dollar.

The corruption of our politicians and Mega Corps are designed to take more and more. Globalists have found that you can buy anyone you want in America. Pretty cheaply i will add.
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