U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-22-2011, 11:38 AM
 
8,265 posts, read 11,192,888 times
Reputation: 4788

Advertisements

There are always new widgets. How many people had a touch tablet two years ago? A smart phone five years ago? A flat screen TV ten years ago?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-22-2011, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,661 posts, read 78,396,225 times
Reputation: 36331
Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
There are always new widgets. How many people had a touch tablet two years ago? A smart phone five years ago? A flat screen TV ten years ago?
No, there aren't ALWAYS new widgets. There have been so far, due to credit. There will stop being new widgets when there are no paid workers to buy them.

People borrow money, order widgets, and pay the borrowed money to capital. When personal debt reaches the saturation point, capital will stop making 3G and 4G widgets, because there is no borrowed money to pay for them. Even when there is liberal credit, capital gets paid up front, and when that stops, production stops, and when that stops, employment stops. Not pretty.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-22-2011, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Here.
15,454 posts, read 14,011,616 times
Reputation: 18080
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
We don't have a "high unemployment rate". It is a couple of points above what would be considered a normal unemployment rate in any economically fluid society. Out of every 100 people who think they need or want a job, the number who don't have a job is 3 or 4 more than the number who would, in normal times, not have a job.

The unemployment "problem" in America is all the people who have gone into debt to buy toys, and now, forced to pay for them, place too much demand on capital to pay them to perform some mindless and useless task.

And there it is in a nutshell. We have borrowed the future jobs, and squandered them. Capital will not create jobs, because the wages paid for those jobs will not be spent buying goods and services, but only paying creditors for goods and services already bought. Everyone has already bought a widget on credit, and now must pay for it, but the widget company sees no purpose in making any more, so will not hire widget makers.



Yes, mostly working in schools and health care and law enforcement and justice and civic infrastructure, doing jobs that would not be done at all if it were left to capital to find a way to do it for a profit. Imagine where you would be without your public sector performing nearly all the work that needs to be done. Detroit is a perfect example of a failed capitalism.
I'm kind of having trouble following your line of reasoning. If all the Toys that Americans were buying were made here, more people would have jobs making things, which I think would qualify in your definition for a worthy jobs (as opposed to a "mindless and useless task").

I also don't understand your point on capital not creating jobs. It is precisely because most Americans are big spenders that our economy is kept buzzing. Personally, materialism is not my cup of tea, but if everyone were a spendthrift like me, there would be a lot more people unemployed (including myself!).

And lastly, regarding your comments on government performing necessary services and capitalism failing: If the private sector (i.e. manufacturing primarily and services secondarily) does not exist (due to anti-capitalist sentiments), then the public sector can not exist very long. That is what is happening in Detroit. It's not a failure of capitalism; it's a failure of anti-capitalism.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-22-2011, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Way South of the Volvo Line
2,778 posts, read 7,386,429 times
Reputation: 2840
Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
Bingo.

You take a middle-class American family today, get rid of expenses for internet, cell/smart phone, cable/sat TV, netflix, give them one simple car, a smaller house, eating out becomes the rare exception, no buying computers, no video game console and the $60/pop games for it, etc. they'd make it on a single income just like people did in the 50s and 60s.
Hate to disappoint you but as a result of the recession and accompanying inflation there are lots of people like me and my spouse: pay-as-you go phones, two respective aging vehicles(because there is no public transportation where we live), cable and internet(without it there is no reception and limited access to banking, billing , etc.), no kids, no meals out, movies, etc. hand-me-down computers.
It simply takes more effort to afford even the basics today. The days of two living on one income are gone. Creditors expect you to have internet connections for bill-paying and customer service. Even job searching is all geared to online services. My house is a winterized cottage in the northeast...don't get much smaller!
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-22-2011, 12:13 PM
 
9,856 posts, read 14,043,505 times
Reputation: 5460
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrackly View Post
Hate to disappoint you but as a result of the recession and accompanying inflation there are lots of people like me and my spouse: pay-as-you go phones, two respective aging vehicles(because there is no public transportation where we live), cable and internet(without it there is no reception and limited access to banking, billing , etc.), no kids, no meals out, movies, etc. hand-me-down computers.
It simply takes more effort to afford even the basics today. The days of two living on one income are gone. Creditors expect you to have internet connections for bill-paying and customer service. Even job searching is all geared to online services. My house is a winterized cottage in the northeast...don't get much smaller!
A sample of one person is not representative of things as a whole.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-22-2011, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Central CT, sometimes NH.
3,734 posts, read 5,549,727 times
Reputation: 4087
There are a lot of needling fees of services that used to be free. Living in a metro area we used to receive a dozen tv stations over the airwaves. The quality of programing on the big three was much better in my opinion than today.

Now cable/dish/uverse in my area is at least $60 if you want to watch the local news. Most of the extra stations are junky infomercials marketing stuff most people would never buy in a store.

Phone bills are littered with additional service fees that take a basic bill and essentially raise it 50% to get what used to be included as part of the regular service.

Many banks are now hitting depositors with fees to keep their cash in a savings acount because the FDIC insurance costs more than what the bank is able to do with savings deposits.

Are we better off? I'm not so sure. We've heard for years that there's been no inflation yet the average person doesn't see that as their reality in the necessary goods and services they pay for.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-22-2011, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,661 posts, read 78,396,225 times
Reputation: 36331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
And lastly, regarding your comments on government performing necessary services and capitalism failing: If the private sector (i.e. manufacturing primarily and services secondarily) does not exist (due to anti-capitalist sentiments), then the public sector can not exist very long. That is what is happening in Detroit. It's not a failure of capitalism; it's a failure of anti-capitalism.
The old black-and-white argument. An economic society must be either ALL capitalist or ALL communist. With no logical or rational analysis to look for ways that the two sectors can be blended. You mean anti-extremist sentiments?

Give me a rough overview about how capital and public-sector can cooperate to form a model economic society. Or admit that you are an extremist, and continue to rail against the anti-extremists.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-22-2011, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Way South of the Volvo Line
2,778 posts, read 7,386,429 times
Reputation: 2840
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
A sample of one person is not representative of things as a whole.
No, but is is evidence that there is no cookie cutter categories for everyone. I f you pay attention to the daily news you will find that many Americans have to work harder for less reward just to survive in today's economy.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-22-2011, 12:39 PM
 
9,856 posts, read 14,043,505 times
Reputation: 5460
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrackly View Post
No, but is is evidence that there is no cookie cutter categories for everyone. I f you pay attention to the daily news you will find that many Americans have to work harder for less reward just to survive in today's economy.
But looking at national averages, you find that the average individual has much more today than they did 50 years ago. Our standard of living for middle class has risen dramatically.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-22-2011, 12:50 PM
Status: "But in the aggregate..." (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
31,331 posts, read 69,465,060 times
Reputation: 37326
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
But looking at national averages, you find that the average individual has much more today than they did 50 years ago. Our standard of living for middle class has risen dramatically.
No it hasn't.
Having an X vs your grandfather not having an X is not in itself a measure of anything significant.

The main distinctions of difference of whether those things that surround us have real value to us...
is the debt associated with having that X and how many of our neighbors were employed in creating that X.

There is only an illusion of having more.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:16 AM.

© 2005-2021, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top