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Walk down a suburban street at 2 PM knocking on doors--there is nobody home. All adults are gone to work. What the hell do they do all day?
Fifty years ago, one person working a full week from each household of five, created all the goods and services needed for national productivity. Now, it takes two workers from a family of three. What are they doing?
Walk in a store, there are no clerks. Self service items on the shelf, but no American is making them. No checkouts, they're automatic scan. The bank doesn't tally my accounts and send me a statement, it's done by a machine. Phone any office, there's nobody there to talk to you on the phone. Nobody repairs anything, everything you buy is disposable, replace it with something taken off a ship from China, by a robot, no stevedores. No agricultural worker, one farmer can work 400 acres driving his machinery by himself. No laundry workers, machines are automatic in every home. Nobody even slicing McDonald's onions, they come in a plastic bag, already sliced by a computer-controlled machine in Indiana.
What are all those people doing who have jobs?
Up in Washington state, longshoremen still load and unload big ships from China, except right now when they're on strike, which means farmers can't get their grain to the docks and the trains and trucks which haul goods to and from the docks are idle.
I have not read all the posts in this thread, I was getting that tennis match feeling ....
It is almost impossible to have a apples to apples comparison between today and 40 years ago, houses were smaller then, there were few "toys", most people may have had a ringer washer but they hung their clothes to dry, families had one TV(maybe) which was in the front room(living/entertainment room of the day), families ate together usually in the kitchen, families had one car which was usually well taken care of and kept until it was no longer repairable, keep in mind most adults just lived through WWII possibly The Depression which their parents did experience, you fixed or had things fixed, you didn't just throw it away.
Most people didn't buy more car than they needed, didn't buy a large house full of empty bedrooms.
You are speaking as if the standard of living is the same today as it was 50 years ago, but its not. People made due with much less 50 years ago than they do today.
Today a single income family can have a better standard of living than they would 50 years ago, so it doesn't "take" two incomes instead people decide they want more. They want a bigger home, they want two cars, they want more toys for their kids, they want more expensive vacations, etc.
Ridiculous.
My husband's father was your average college-educated guy. He never reached management level, he just did his thing. He supported an entire family (a housewife and 3 kids), built and paid a house in 5 years, put all of his kids through college, never lost sleep on health care related costs, student loans or retirement and retired in his 50's. They had a simple, secure, relatively low-paced and overall prosperous life.
I will agree to cut to the bone all of the "want more, fluff" expenses you decry. Then I will quit my job. Then I will watch us NOT being able to achieve what my husband's father achieved REGARDLESS of what we do (cook from scratch, have kids play with twigs ...nevermind my kids still play with the many high quality toys my husband was bought as a child and which we would never be able to justify buying today).
I should note that my husband is significantly more educated and more professionally successful than his father was.
My husband's father was your average college-educated guy. He never reached management level, he just did his thing. He supported an entire family (a housewife and 3 kids), built and paid a house in 5 years, put all of his kids through college, never lost sleep on health care related costs, student loans or retirement and retired in his 50's.
More childhood memories, but this time its not even your own parents....
This entirely ignores the content of the post you are quoting, namely that today's standards are higher than those in the past. A home isn't a home, a car isn't a car, etc. Today we live in much larger homes, we have far more gadgets, etc. A family of 5 headed by a college educated man could easily make it today on a single income if they lived like they did in the past. In fact it would be even easier.... Also, this should go without saying, but there is a huge variation in what people with college degrees make. "College educated, but not management" includes a large range of salaries....
One could easily support a family of 5 here (one of the more expensive areas of the country) on $70k~$80k if you lived a 60's~70's lifestyle. That salary is pretty easy to achieve with a college degree....
When people say they can't make it on a single salary the source of the problem is usually poor financial management.
This entirely ignores the content of the post you are quoting, namely that today's standards are higher than those in the past. A home isn't a home, a car isn't a car, etc. Today we live in much larger homes, we have far more gadgets, etc. A family of 5 headed by a college educated man could easily make it today on a single income if they lived like they did in the past. In fact it would be even easier.... Also, this should go without saying, but there is a huge variation in what people with college degrees make. "College educated, but not management" includes a large range of salaries....
One could easily support a family of 5 here (one of the more expensive areas of the country) on $70k~$80k if you lived a 60's~70's lifestyle. That salary is pretty easy to achieve with a college degree....
When people say they can't make it on a single salary the source of the problem is usually poor financial management.
You made the leap from a 60's worker with no higher education or skills, and said a worker today can easily achieve that with a college degree. Well, a college degree in the 60s could easily achieve a lavish house and a luxury car and all the available gadgets, too. You have just validated the whole point---that it now takes a college degree to enjoy a standard of living comparable to that of a HS grad with no special skills 50 years ago.
OK, here's your chance to show us all "financial manageent". In the 50s, any college kid could get a summer job for a dollar an hour. Double that to $2 an hour, and you have a wage that would enable one working man to support his family in dignified housing, a reliable car, nutritious food, medical security, and respectable clothing, with a modicum of the available luxuries and entertainment. Today counter help in a fast food joint pays $8 an hour, so show me the sound financial management of a family of four living on double that, $16 an hour, or $2500 a month gross, less than $2000 take home, in the town you live in, including dignified housing, a reliable car, nutritious food, medical security, and respectable clothing, even without a modicum of the available luxuries .
You made the leap from a 60's worker with no higher education or skills, and said a worker today can easily achieve that with a college degree.
Umm....no.... The poster explicitly mentioned that the person in question had a college degree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
Double that to $2 an hour, and you have a wage that would enable one working man to support his family in dignified housing, a reliable car, nutritious food, medical security, and respectable clothing, with a modicum of the available luxuries and entertainment.
Feel free to actually demonstrate this....
Furthermore, you are again ignoring the fundamental issue, today's homes, cars, etc aren't the same as those in the 50's.
But there are areas of the country where someone could support a family on double the minimum wage if they lived like they did in the 50's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
in the town you live in, including dignified housing, a reliable car, nutritious food, medical security, and respectable clothing, even without a modicum of the available luxuries .
Umm....this is ridiculous. I live in one of the most expensive areas of country the fact that an "average Joe" can't make it here on a basic salary says nothing. This isn't an "average Joe" community, the median household income here is around $150,000.
Umm....this is ridiculous. I live in one of the most expensive areas of country the fact that an "average Joe" can't make it here on a basic salary says nothing. This isn't an "average Joe" community, the median household income here is around $150,000.
Of course its ridiculous. It can't be done anywhere on double the minimum wage. Which is, I think, the point I made that you keep disputing. And in your area, I bet in the 50's, there were people there supporting their families on double the minimum wage. It could be done then, but it can't be done now. Thanks for your support.
Just curious: Which should be the objective of a well-developed national society? Ordinary workers being able to support their families, or a superclass of people who can afford all the glitzy new toys and fancy dining and entertainment? In a country not yet developed, which would you recommend as their target for economic growth---decent lifestyle for all workers, or a lot of supertoys for the privileged? You know what? Underdeveloped third world countries already have the latter.
It can't be done anywhere on double the minimum wage. Which is, I think, the point I made that you keep disputing.
Right I keep disputing it. Firstly you've not provide any data that shows that someone could easily afford the things you mentioned on average. Secondly, I contend that there are areas of the country where someone could support a family on 2x minimum wage if you live like they did in the 1950's. Though, it will be a very basic life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
And in your area, I bet in the 50's, there were people there supporting their families on double the minimum wage. It could be done then, but it can't be done now.
This was a ranching area in the 1950's, today its dramatically different. And this is precisely why the underlying idea you are promoting is fundamentally wrong, namely, communities aren't static. Communities change over time and the shifts can effect the value of the real estate in the community.
And communities don't always get more expensive. A home in the rust-belt is cheaper today (in real terms) than it was in the 1950's when the area had a strong economy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
Ordinary workers being able to support their families, or a superclass of people who can afford all the glitzy new toys and fancy dining and entertainment?
I'm not sure how these are exclusive. Most Americans own a home and are able to support their families and many households today are still single income. Yet, there are also people that are considerably more wealthy than average.
1) Technological progress is rapidly accelerating. In the 50s-70s, computers didn't exist in the common workplace, or factories, or anywhere really except the military or very large government contract organizations.
This is important because technological progress allows greater output per unit energy. Combine this with ...
2) Price performance of said technology is now to the point that third world countries, like China and India, can rapidly construct an industry with little infrastructure investment. Put in other words, companies and cities back in the 50s and 70s HAD to invest in HUGE PROJECTS to build the INFRASTRUCTURE necessary to support the boom of the day.
If the USA had been bombed to smithereens in WWII and we were back to a third world country ... I'm sure you'd see the same headlines in Europe or Russia today ... "AMERICA STEALING PATENTS AT CUT RATE LABOR!" ... "LAX REGULATIONS AND CORRUPTION DRIVING BUSINESSES OUT OF OUR HOME!" and so forth because technology has progressed to that point now.
For reference, I kindly point back to the USA in our formitive years. Oh yes, you forgot! We were once an agrarian and backwards country! Well, in the 1860s onward, we stole, literally, ideas from Europe and used the natural resources to build a world power that rivalled anything that existed at the time.
Sound familiar?
3) Said technological progress is rapidly displacing the need for manual labor and globalization is rapidly allowing said infrastructure to appear in random, pocketized instances (except China).
4) Said technological progress forces reinvestment of capital into improving existing infrastructure and is an accelerating feedback loop. In other words, tech is rapidly progressing and is accelerating.
5) Globalization + technological drive = displacement of workers and increasing demands of productivity per family.
Need I remind you that this has been going on since the 80s. We are finally reaching a point where women and men have to work and take on debt to keep up their standards of living and in most cases, will decline. This will not reverse, and I fully expect the world to eventually have a roughly equal standard of living everywhere.
There was another thing too ... I would like jtur to actually back up the data in his posts. Seriously. I see the photo albums of how my grandparents raised my parents and it wasn't like what we have today.
Back then my grandfather had six kids. The house he raised them in was barely 1250 sq. ft. They shared bedrooms. They shared one and a half bathrooms. They had one car and my grandfather learned how to maintain it. They had one tv that lasted for nearly 10 years. They finally got a color TV in the mid 70s. And then that one lasted another 10 years (by then my dad was busy with his own family!).
Now tell me how the same family would stand today under similar circumstances? Not well I wager.
Today, to do the same, most people would want at least double the house and bathrooms, three or more cars, six computers with at least six smartphones, multiple TVs, air conditioning, frequent trips to amusement parks, etc. My parents went to the park to have fun. Not play video games on the latest and greatest TVs with surround sound and the best consoles or PCs, or demand to go to the waterpark.
Our demands as a culture have gone up, so obviously, when the factors I listed above finally start coming home to roost, we will see our "abject poverty" and wax lamenting on our "falling living standards". Bull. Absolute bull. We can do more with less. Multiple generations before us were proof.
We're simply spoiled rotten these days and I think it's high time we learned our lesson.
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