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So the buying of stocks as retirement vehicles and not saving in banks encouraged the outsourcing of jobs.
Without even addressing the tenuous trail of logical leaps and assumptions you made to get to this conclusion, how does this make a 401k a ripoff?
Was there literature you got with your 401k plan that said choosing to invest in stock mutual funds will in no way impact where the companies you invest in will manufacture goods? I can assure you that the money I've invested in 401ks over my career has done better than if I had chucked it into a taxable bank account, so how is that a ripoff to me?
There's something about groupthink that disallows the truth to emerge, "rich" is just a good baiting term for the kind of foolish discourse that web sites have become famous for. It isn't the "rich" that people hate, it's the abuse of power from those on top that brews the hatred, unchecked power, power that buys the government, power that determines the fate of the masses, power that tends towards the creation of self serving constructs in business, law, education, and most of the popular culture agenda. Those who have a lot of money are not always "those" who rule, but the fact remains that those who have the reins of power are always very wealthy, after all, wealth is the secondary goal of power. The abuse of power is what people really hate, and that hatred of abusive power is what this country was founded on.
Okay, homeless person is better off than young lawyer or Doctor. After all, they likely have a lot more debt than the guy digging thru the trash can for dinner.
Homeless person digging through trash can with $100k of debt and homeless person digging through trashcan with no debt. Both get a settlement for $10k. The homeless person with no debt gets to keep his.
Young doctor with no debt and young doctor with high debt Who is better off than whom? The less debt you have the better off you are. Make sure that you get value for your money when you go into debt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw
Without even addressing the tenuous trail of logical leaps and assumptions you made to get to this conclusion, how does this make a 401k a ripoff?
They were used to finance the middle classes destruction. Assuming the logic holds that is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw
Was there literature you got with your 401k plan that said choosing to invest in stock mutual funds will in no way impact where the companies you invest in will manufacture goods?
I sat in on my friends 402k orientation. They said three options: 1, stock in just the company he worked for, 2, a broader stock portfolio, and 3, something else that I don’t quite remember.(Its was 25 years ago.) Mine I didn't read the literature as I didn't buy in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw
I can assure you that the money I've invested in 401ks over my career has done better than if I had chucked it into a taxable bank account, so how is that a ripoff to me?
For you personally it is not a rip off. But it is the difference between macro and micro economics. But if the income from CDs wasn’t taxable then we would be in much better shape as far as the trade deficit goes. That is what makes it a rip off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber
There's something about groupthink that disallows the truth to emerge, "rich" is just a good baiting term for the kind of foolish discourse that web sites have become famous for. It isn't the "rich" that people hate, it's the abuse of power from those on top that brews the hatred, unchecked power, power that buys the government, power that determines the fate of the masses, power that tends towards the creation of self serving constructs in business, law, education, and most of the popular culture agenda. Those who have a lot of money are not always "those" who rule, but the fact remains that those who have the reins of power are always very wealthy, after all, wealth is the secondary goal of power. The abuse of power is what people really hate, and that hatred of abusive power is what this country was founded on.
That is what I have been trying to say and trying to think, thank you for putting it into words.
Young doctor with no debt and young doctor with high debt Who is better off than whom? The less debt you have the better off you are. Make sure that you get value for your money when you go into debt.
2 young doctors making $100K. Doctor 1 works for a hospital for 10 years. He/she takes on no additional debt and receives an annual COL raise.
Doctor 2 works at the hospital, but then decides to start his/her own practice. Doctor 2 takes on an initial $200K of debt/line of credit to buy medical equipment, office space, hire staff, etc. The practice grows exponentially and he/she continues to hire medical staff, pay employee salary/benefits, etc. In 10 years, he has a profitable business and has identified a successor - a young doctor employee who wants to buy his practice and the succession plan is put in place. He also has paid off the medical building and is now collecting rent income from other tenants.
Who is in the better position? Doctor 1 who has had no debt and a steady 10 year salary working for someone else? Or Doctor 2 who has smartly leveraged debt (other people's money) to build a successful practice, buy an income producing building, hire employees and pay their benefits, and eventually sell his practice for a substantial price so he can retire early to a quiet caribbean island and play golf all day? Which Doctor do you think contributes more to the growth of the local economy?
Salary certainly does matter, most people's living expenses come directly from it. Yes, things like rent and a car are spending but spending is not in itself evil and the person in the example is certainly living a better life than a poor person despite the student loan debt.
How about this, go find middle class family with nice house, two cars in the driveway, eating out regularly, going on vacation, emergency fund in the bank, etc. who currently have a negative net worth because the value of their home dropped by 50%. Then go find a poor families living in the projects and ask if they think they are better off because they have less debt.
Debt does NOT automatically mean you are worse off.
Just because your salary is high does not mean you can have more money then someone earning half of the high salary person.
Sure, you can PRETEND to be wealthy living in debt but you are really poor.
A debt is a debt is a debt.
There are middle class who want to keep up with the Jones' and buy stuff on credit to pretend they are rich.
There are rich folks living in trailor parks who are millionaires who chose to be frugal and give back to community.
If you borrow money for investment and have great returns then you did a good job.
Their is nothing wrong with being in debt as long as you have a plan to eliminate that debt.
When it comes to business, debt can be good. The fact is thats how business operates. Great wealth can be built on the back of debt. As long as your business plan can show that the debt can be serviced by the income generated from the business venture then that is good debt. Lets say that a company has grown to the point that they need another service van but they don't have the ability to pay cash for the van. Leasing or buying it on time makes sence if that van will generate more money than the cost of the debt. We are building a new hospital and have sold $340million in bonds to build the hospital. We also have shown that we will generate the income to pay off the bonds. It is part of the plan for taking on the debt.
We buy homes on time. When we bought our home we had a plan to pay it off in 15 years or less. From the program that I just looked at it looks like we will pay it off earlier than that. Lucky me. Their is nothing wrong with buying a home on time. You have to live somewhere. If you can swing the down and the cost to get in the door, why not do it?
The problem with debt is consumer debt. You just have to have to have a $60,000 car, a boat, and all the other toys. That kind of debt generated no income. It is the kind of debt to run away from and fear.
Okay, homeless person is better off than young lawyer or Doctor. After all, they likely have a lot more debt than the guy digging thru the trash can for dinner.
Financially he is but not when it comes to resources.
It's so easy to say let's get rid of all the rich people. Let's take away all of their wealth and redistribute it among the rest of the people. Well, if there are no longer any rich people in the country then who are you going to go to work for? You don't want to work for the poor people because they don't have any money to pay you. You don't want to start a business and be successful because Curious Barry is just going to come along one day and take all of your profits away from you like he wants to do to all the "rich people" now. There's one big problem with the Economic Redistribution *******'s fantasy. If you remove the possibility of advancement and enrichment from our society then how the he11 are you going to get anybody to do anything? What is the incentive? We all may as well sin on the couch and let Curious Barry our bills. This country was founded on good moral Christian values. the American dream was always that if you work hard you can reap the rewards. The fruit of thy labor so to speak. Now the American dream seems to be fast becoming, "I'm gonna get mine! We got Obama in the Whitehouse and he's gonna pay all my bills! As long as Obama is in the Whitehouse I'm gonna be gettin what's due me"! WTF people? Wake up and smell the coffee. Y'all ain't entitled to jack sh1t! There's only one group of Americans that are "entitled" to anything. That's honorably discharged US military veterans. That's because they earned it. Many paid the ultimate price. Others paid with blood, limbs and other body parts. Many came home a shattered piece of their former selves. Just imagine what your lives would be like without the sacrifices our brave men and women have made to keep this country free and safe. Think about that the next time you figure it's time for you to get what you think this country owes you. If y'all stopped looking for what you think this country owes you and started to really work to make your community, your state and your country a better, safer place for all of our children and grand children to grow up and prosper in we the people would be a whole lot better off! Let's get Jesus back in our government and back in all of our daily lives. we'd be a whole lot better off if we all tried a little harder to raise our brothers and sisters up instead of trying to just knock them all down just to line our own pockets with a little more of their cheddar! Let's make 2012 an error correction year and send all of the greedy tax and spend socialist out of Washington DC and beck to where ever the he11 they came from. Let's all vote for Jesus in 2012.
God Bless America
God bless you and your families.
Salary does not matter, You can make $100K a year and still be and in poor especially if you aren't happy with what you make.
Rents a nice townhome is more likely high rent which means spending.
Nice car is a depreciable and disposable item.
Eats out a lot = disposable
$40K in Loans is Debt.
How do you define the poor?
My wifes sister is poor. She lives in government sponsored housing. She makes $8.50 an hour. She rides a bike to work. She has no insurance other than government sponsored insurance. She is raising a teen age daughter on her own who is now a senior in High School. They can't take vacations. they don't have the ability to buy new items for their home. They have no disposable income to speak of. Between checks we are feeding them. My sister in law has no concept of how to manage money. She lives for tax season as she will get back all that she gave the goverment. She also spends it as soon as she gets it. She saves nothing and spends what ever she gets. She also has no debt. She relies on others if she has to go somewhere far or wants to take a trip some place. She relies on family members to make sure that she can give her daughter Christmas gifts and everything else that goes with that.
My wife and I make well over $100,000 a year. We have a home that we owe $290,000 on. We have $40,000+ in student loan debt. $330,000 in the hole. I drive a Porsche, although it is an older car still fun. I have an old airplane and we have a boat, all paid for. We take trips a few times a year. I like to head over to Arizona to visit my parents from time to time. We have 6 kids, 2 in high school. They cost a bit to raise. The kids all have a 20 inch TV in their room on the wall. We have a 32 inch on the wall in our room, that is 4 TV's. We have a 42 inch on the wall above the fireplace. All are paid for. Besides my wife and me 3 of the kids have cell phones. We have digital cable in all the rooms in the home. On the weekends when we are home we bar BQ in the back and enjoy our yard with its out door eating area. The kids have a trampoline to play on and many times their friends will stop by to have fun in the back yard. We have parties in our home at least once a month with family and friends.
My kids have lots of opportunities and are doing well in school. We ride bikes around as a family and have taken the bikes to the beach and other places in the area as a family. When my kids want to go hang out at the mall or go to the movies with friends they can. Some of the kids that they hang out with don't have what we do and many times we pay for those kids as well. Last month my son invited 2 of his friends to go to 6 Flaggs Magic Mountain with us and we paid for them to go. Then again we have the ability to do that.
2 young doctors making $100K. Doctor 1 works for a hospital for 10 years. He/she takes on no additional debt and receives an annual COL raise.
Doctor 2 works at the hospital, but then decides to start his/her own practice. Doctor 2 takes on an initial $200K of debt/line of credit to buy medical equipment, office space, hire staff, etc. The practice grows exponentially and he/she continues to hire medical staff, pay employee salary/benefits, etc. In 10 years, he has a profitable business and has identified a successor - a young doctor employee who wants to buy his practice and the succession plan is put in place. He also has paid off the medical building and is now collecting rent income from other tenants.
Who is in the better position? Doctor 1 who has had no debt and a steady 10 year salary working for someone else? Or Doctor 2 who has smartly leveraged debt (other people's money) to build a successful practice, buy an income producing building, hire employees and pay their benefits, and eventually sell his practice for a substantial price so he can retire early to a quiet caribbean island and play golf all day? Which Doctor do you think contributes more to the growth of the local economy?
I'd rather be Doctor 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by newonecoming2
Make sure that you get value for your money when you go into debt.
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