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Old 09-22-2011, 01:28 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,624,776 times
Reputation: 5180

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
The recession was caused by the burst housing bubble (which was caused by you and me). The speed at which the recession accelerated was precipitated by banking policy.

The first domino, however, was the consumer. Obviously MSNBC and Jon Stewart (do liberals get news from any other sources?) would not report that though, as real data analysis isn't as important as retaining viewers.




What was the first domino in that chain? Do some research before you call other people ignorant. There is more to the scenario than what the nightly news tells you.
I called no one ignorant; I said the position that it was the consumers fault was ignorant.
Explain how the consumer could possibly be the first domino. The entire scenario had to be in place in order to draw the consumer into the mix.
Monetary policy already had to be lax flooding the banks with money to loan. The derivatives already had to be in place to allow the banks to lay off any risk in making the bogus loans. Fanny and Freddy had to be on board to raise their loan guarantees to accommodate the higher valuations.
The bus was fueled, and the course laid out, long before the consumer got onboard.
I have done my research. Follow the money; it will always lead to the truth. Who made all the money from the bubble? Who got the government bail outs?
Who got million dollar bonuses while millions of people lost their homes? Who got off and was never prosecuted for any of the fraud and misconduct including forging trust deeds?
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Old 09-22-2011, 09:58 PM
 
3,335 posts, read 2,700,646 times
Reputation: 921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icy Tea View Post
This Wall Street protest was a non event. A bunch of people with time to spend sightseeing in NYC, hoping to get attention, who can comfortably stage a protest. Many are spoiled rich kids, others are aging hippies. When REAL riots start, these assorted doofuses would be the first to scatter or be victimized( and not by the police).
They could have staged a much more high profile protest at The White House and targeted the same money movers. Or they could take over a FEMA camp and really blow some minds. But thats not targeting the right people, actually it would be but these tools couldn't figure that out.
You should do it. The right tool for the job and all.
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Old 09-22-2011, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,090 posts, read 11,165,994 times
Reputation: 4118
Quote:
Originally Posted by modeerf View Post
You should do it. The right tool for the job and all.
Yes, obviously other people should protest and work towards your causes. Just like every other armchair (or desk chair) revolutionary seems to expect.

I bet it happened to this "protest". These people thought everyone else should do the work towards their cause for them.
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Old 09-23-2011, 09:08 AM
 
9,856 posts, read 14,043,505 times
Reputation: 5460
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
I called no one ignorant; I said the position that it was the consumers fault was ignorant.
Explain how the consumer could possibly be the first domino. The entire scenario had to be in place in order to draw the consumer into the mix.
Monetary policy already had to be lax flooding the banks with money to loan. The derivatives already had to be in place to allow the banks to lay off any risk in making the bogus loans. Fanny and Freddy had to be on board to raise their loan guarantees to accommodate the higher valuations.
The bus was fueled, and the course laid out, long before the consumer got onboard.
I have done my research. Follow the money; it will always lead to the truth. Who made all the money from the bubble? Who got the government bail outs?
Who got million dollar bonuses while millions of people lost their homes? Who got off and was never prosecuted for any of the fraud and misconduct including forging trust deeds?
You are absolutely right. Follow the money.

The average American consumer's standard of living has skyrocketed. In the last 50 years the average home size has more than doubled for the middle class, items which used to be classified as luxury (a dishwasher, for example) are now staples, the average number of cars has risen by 75%.

Follow the money and you clearly see that the average American has benefitted enormously from this bubble. Following the money leads you just as much to the average American as it does to a select few banks (of which their survival is an absolute necessity if we wish to prevent an all-out depression).
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Old 09-23-2011, 11:34 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,624,776 times
Reputation: 5180
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
You are absolutely right. Follow the money.

The average American consumer's standard of living has skyrocketed. In the last 50 years the average home size has more than doubled for the middle class, items which used to be classified as luxury (a dishwasher, for example) are now staples, the average number of cars has risen by 75%.

Follow the money and you clearly see that the average American has benefitted enormously from this bubble. Following the money leads you just as much to the average American as it does to a select few banks (of which their survival is an absolute necessity if we wish to prevent an all-out depression).
That depends entirely on how you define "standard of living".
To some it means the amount of material goods you have accumulated.
To others it means at what point in life you can cast off your chains of servatude, and still be able to live comfortably without working every day.

The "standard of living" you allude to today comes from two sources. One the cost of producing gadgets like appliances, electronics, and other consumables has fallen due to automation and exploitation of foreign labor.
The other is the willingness of the public to put themselves in debt to enjoy tomorrow’s earnings today. As a result, a large portion of the population face perpetual servitude with little or no hope of ever being able to retire or to do with their life what they would choose.

In decades past, people saved more and as a result were able to retire or to pursue other interests. For many that meant owning one of the millions of small businesses that have now been run out of existence by the big box stores.
Also in the past, the cost of basic survival was less, as was inflation, making it possible for the average worker to spend less hours working and more time enjoying life. I am old enough to remember when 15 and 20-year mortgages were the norm and most people were "out of debt" in their 40's.
That norm also included a life where your milk was delivered to your door, you received full service at the filling station, and the family doctor would come to your home.
There are also now literally millions of pages of laws and regulations reducing your freedoms on the books that did not even exist in past.
Standard of living is not only measured in gadgets, but in levels of service and of freedom to do as you wish, when you wish.
Today many will work "extended work weeks" their entire life until they drop dead and never pay off their debts, and never have the freedom to pursue their own life.
That is called being a wage slave, and personally, I would rather be a poor free man, than a well kept slave.
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Old 09-23-2011, 01:18 PM
 
9,856 posts, read 14,043,505 times
Reputation: 5460
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
That depends entirely on how you define "standard of living".
To some it means the amount of material goods you have accumulated.
To others it means at what point in life you can cast off your chains of servatude, and still be able to live comfortably without working every day.

The "standard of living" you allude to today comes from two sources. One the cost of producing gadgets like appliances, electronics, and other consumables has fallen due to automation and exploitation of foreign labor.
The other is the willingness of the public to put themselves in debt to enjoy tomorrow’s earnings today. As a result, a large portion of the population face perpetual servitude with little or no hope of ever being able to retire or to do with their life what they would choose.

In decades past, people saved more and as a result were able to retire or to pursue other interests. For many that meant owning one of the millions of small businesses that have now been run out of existence by the big box stores.
Also in the past, the cost of basic survival was less, as was inflation, making it possible for the average worker to spend less hours working and more time enjoying life. I am old enough to remember when 15 and 20-year mortgages were the norm and most people were "out of debt" in their 40's.
That norm also included a life where your milk was delivered to your door, you received full service at the filling station, and the family doctor would come to your home.
There are also now literally millions of pages of laws and regulations reducing your freedoms on the books that did not even exist in past.
Standard of living is not only measured in gadgets, but in levels of service and of freedom to do as you wish, when you wish.
Today many will work "extended work weeks" their entire life until they drop dead and never pay off their debts, and never have the freedom to pursue their own life.
That is called being a wage slave, and personally, I would rather be a poor free man, than a well kept slave.
I am referring to standard of living in an economic sense, as this is an economic conversation. Americans have the luxury of more 'stuff' now than they used to. Americans (in an economic sense through purchasing power and net consumption levels) have reaped great rewards over the last few decades.

If you feel people are 'wage slaves' today, then that is a different discussion. I am discussing economics, not the philosophy of work.
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Old 09-23-2011, 01:41 PM
 
3,335 posts, read 2,700,646 times
Reputation: 921
Quote:
Originally Posted by subsound View Post
Yes, obviously other people should protest and work towards your causes. Just like every other armchair (or desk chair) revolutionary seems to expect.

I bet it happened to this "protest". These people thought everyone else should do the work towards their cause for them.
Got a bug up your ass or somethin'

You don't know what i do, or where i do it. Yet you call me an armchair revolutionary.

Those low subsounds may be eating your brain. Get back to the midrange.
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Old 09-23-2011, 01:45 PM
 
3,335 posts, read 2,700,646 times
Reputation: 921
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
I am referring to standard of living in an economic sense, as this is an economic conversation. Americans have the luxury of more 'stuff' now than they used to. Americans (in an economic sense through purchasing power and net consumption levels) have reaped great rewards over the last few decades.

If you feel people are 'wage slaves' today, then that is a different discussion. I am discussing economics, not the philosophy of work.
How does it make good economic sense to be corrupt, and greedy?

It's more of a competitive addiction disorder that promotes getting ahead of everyone else at the cost of everyone else.

Banking Leaches have drained the greatest economic engine in the history of the world, all for a bunch of zero's on their statements.

This is a sickness in this country that the banking elite have cultured and manipulated beyond their control.


Now, they want us all to pay for their sins.
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Old 09-23-2011, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 20,046,065 times
Reputation: 15719
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
umm......are you being serious? The majority of people will always try to overextend themselves given the opportunity...so we should have a recession 100% of the time.

And yes, the financial markets were just going along, they had nothing to do with motivating people to take out loans they couldn't afford...

But seriously, let's ignore all that, what exactly are bankers suppose to be doing? Allocating capital to their most effective use via lending, not allocating capital to anybody that asks nicely. You see, its only the former function that helps the economy. The bankers utterly failed at their jobs....so why not have them cleaning the toilets instead?


No, the housing bubble was caused by the creation of financial products that, at least in the short-term, hid the risks associated with complex mortgage securities that made 0% down, etc loans possible.

Blaming the housing bubble on people because they used 0%, etc loans made available to them makes no sense at all....

I've taken you off of "ignore," you are finally making some statements that are right on.
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Old 09-23-2011, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 20,046,065 times
Reputation: 15719
Quote:
Originally Posted by modeerf View Post
This is a sickness in this country that the banking elite have cultured and manipulated beyond their control.

Now, they want us all to pay for their sins.
And we will be, for a very long time to come.
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