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Old 09-26-2011, 10:32 AM
 
3,335 posts, read 2,701,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromekitty View Post
Don't even go there.....you are crying there is no personal responsibility, what about the responsibility of the bankers, wall street et al...... They could have said NO! just as they used to.......but the fact is they did not, and why??? GREED!! They are not suffering any consequences of their irresponsible behavior. The American people are!
You are correct, but the sad thing is that we haven't even begun to suffer according to the plans on the table right now.

We are entering a preparatory season of beating the war drums.

Bankers are in the fight of their lives and they need a distraction from the attention they are getting.

GASPARINO: 'Morgan Stanley Will Not Silence Me With Death Threats'
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Old 09-26-2011, 10:53 AM
 
9,856 posts, read 14,044,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromekitty View Post
Don't even go there.....you are crying there is no personal responsibility, what about the responsibility of the bankers, wall street et al...... They could have said NO! just as they used to.......but the fact is they did not, and why??? GREED!! They are not suffering any consequences of their irresponsible behavior. The American people are!
And the reason the middle class family of four buys a 3,000 sqft home at the risk of foreclosure is nothing but greed as well. What is your point?

Wall street would be nothing if you and me didn't throw money at them so we could fulfill our greedy need to have more than one another.
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Old 09-26-2011, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Near the water
8,229 posts, read 12,146,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
And the reason the middle class family of four buys a 3,000 sqft home at the risk of foreclosure is nothing but greed as well. What is your point?

Wall street would be nothing if you and me didn't throw money at them so we could fulfill our greedy need to have more than one another.

No there is nothing wrong with it. you see, for years and years people attempted to get lines of credit, credit cards, mortgages, loans and TPTB simply said NO. That stopped, they got greedy and figured out they could make more money so they began saying YES. THAT is what has gotten us where we are today. They simply got greedy and din't want to say NO and it has backfired on the American people.

Money at wallstreet, do you think you are that valuable??? The days of stupidity are quickly coming to an end.
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Old 09-26-2011, 11:06 AM
 
9,856 posts, read 14,044,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromekitty View Post
No there is nothing wrong with it. you see, for years and years people attempted to get lines of credit, credit cards, mortgages, loans and TPTB simply said NO. That stopped, they got greedy and figured out they could make more money so they began saying YES. THAT is what has gotten us where we are today. They simply got greedy and din't want to say NO and it has backfired on the American people.

Money at wallstreet, do you think you are that valuable??? The days of stupidity are quickly coming to an end.
So you DO blame McDonalds if a person is fat?

Screw individual responsibility, right?
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Old 09-26-2011, 06:06 PM
 
12,869 posts, read 13,680,276 times
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the truth is that there is plenty of blame to go around. motley fool had a good piece (if you want to look it up-- on some of the perps during the financial crisis, franklin raines comes to mind immediately).

the other truth is that the government screwed up and wall street needs to be regulated. it is a ticking time bomb now. it was a HORRIBLE idea to merge investment and commercial banking.

any sane person would ask WHO THE HECK POLICES THEMSELVES?

does anyone really believe that wall street is looking out for start up new businesses anymore, and that it isn't about commissions and bonuses? we really need change.

it is also long past time for people to go to jail for their transgressions.

bring out the handcuffs.
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:22 AM
 
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and they better get busy before the carbon derivative taxes kick in on the citizens.

don't think this isn't the eventual goal being pushed -the largest derivative market in the world, with the largest mandatory tax increase in history-the biggest way to steal money from the citizens:

Nathan's Economic Edge: Carbon Derivatives to Become World’s Largest Derivatives Market?

Carbon Derivatives to Become World’s Largest Derivatives Market?

President Obama is talking up the benefits of his Carbon plan as I type. Somehow I think this has the hallmarks of the central bankers all over it. Talk now is that this would immediately become the world’s largest commodity derivative market and may surpass all individual derivatives types in size.

And who do you suppose will trade these? Who will assess and collect fees? Who will ultimately pay for all those fees? That’s right, you and me. And will it truly help the environment? While I support the notion of controlling pollution, creating a “carbon market” to accomplish it sounds to me like it is just letting the investment banks and market makers control another new false derivatives market. We already know how well that’s worked out in the past… Call me a skeptic.



“Wall Street has already hired 130 lobbyists?” Are you kidding me? And Obama is selling this? When are the people going to wake the heck up?

seriously, think about all this-- and our future.
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Old 09-27-2011, 08:10 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,625,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
That is not standard of living from an economic sense. That is standard of living from a political and moral sense, which is not pertinent to this conversation..
Yes it is, look up the definition. The standard of living includes the prices of goods and services. When the service accociated with the purchace of goods is cut, then you are recieving less for your money, and in fact, the costs have increased, which in turn lowers your standard of living. This has been happening steadily for 40 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
The housing bubble was not created by unstable financial products. The steep decline AFTER the bubble burst was accelerated by those products..
No matter how many times you say that, it is still wrong. Financial products created the housing bubble. Without derivatives, the housing bubble would never have grown to the enormous size it did. Without liar loans, fabricated by the lending industry, the same is true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
There have been economic bubbles throughout history, before modern financial systems were even in place. (research the tulip bubble of 1637, or the south sea bubble of 1720 as two examples). Bubbles are caused by average, ordinary people (look up the term 'greater fool theory'). We (the fools) think of the market (whether tulips in the 1600's or houses today) as overly optimistic (which is also why casinos boom), and we buy at prices beyond what is reasonable because of our overly optimistic psychology. Bubbles are NOT caused by the financial markets. Those are simply tools, no more, no less. Don't blame a poorly built house on the hammer that was used to make it..
The boom / bust cycle is a natural part of the economic cycle, they are driven by prosperity and inflationary forces, but that is different from a bubble.
Bubbles are created by a combination of monetary and lending policies that falsely inflate asset prices, while providing easy credit and increased money supply to artificially "juice" the economy creating artificial growth that is unsustainable and destined to end in recession.




Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
But that is the thing. The investment vehicles did not hide risk, it managed it. Any reasonable person knows not to spend 40% of their overall salary buying a home with no money down. Financial instruments did not create this bubble. People have a responsibility to educate themselves on the industries and investments which they use. If people who should not have bought homes were smart enough to not overextend themselves in the first place, the trading options in question would not have been able to exist. People overextending themselves, not having backup plans and being at great risk of default was the thing which causes the bubble in the first place.
Yes they did. For more than 20 years the bubble economy created by false real estate valuation and artificially low interest rates, combined with easy credit made it extremely profitable for people to go over their heads in debt to purchase real estate.
For 20 years, the policies of the Fed and the financial industry made it extremely profitable to be financially irresponsible, and financially painful to be prudent.
The people did not create the environment of the house being an ATM.
The people did not create the derivatives that made it attractive to write bad loans and sell them to someone else.
And the people did not create liar loans that made getting in way over your head possible to begin with.
Your argument is false, while the people may have gone along with the program, they did not create it, they were simply the ignorant victims of a criminal financial industry who sold the entire country out to make themselves wealthy and had enough of our government in their pockets to get away with it.
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Old 09-28-2011, 05:42 AM
 
12,869 posts, read 13,680,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Yes it is, look up the definition. The standard of living includes the prices of goods and services. When the service accociated with the purchace of goods is cut, then you are recieving less for your money, and in fact, the costs have increased, which in turn lowers your standard of living. This has been happening steadily for 40 years.


No matter how many times you say that, it is still wrong. Financial products created the housing bubble. Without derivatives, the housing bubble would never have grown to the enormous size it did. Without liar loans, fabricated by the lending industry, the same is true.


The boom / bust cycle is a natural part of the economic cycle, they are driven by prosperity and inflationary forces, but that is different from a bubble.
Bubbles are created by a combination of monetary and lending policies that falsely inflate asset prices, while providing easy credit and increased money supply to artificially "juice" the economy creating artificial growth that is unsustainable and destined to end in recession.






Yes they did. For more than 20 years the bubble economy created by false real estate valuation and artificially low interest rates, combined with easy credit made it extremely profitable for people to go over their heads in debt to purchase real estate.
For 20 years, the policies of the Fed and the financial industry made it extremely profitable to be financially irresponsible, and financially painful to be prudent.
The people did not create the environment of the house being an ATM.
The people did not create the derivatives that made it attractive to write bad loans and sell them to someone else.
And the people did not create liar loans that made getting in way over your head possible to begin with.
Your argument is false, while the people may have gone along with the program, they did not create it, they were simply the ignorant victims of a criminal financial industry who sold the entire country out to make themselves wealthy and had enough of our government in their pockets to get away with it.
would you agree that they are all exploiters? people getting mortgages they know that they cannot afford (a liar's loan) are no different in intent than those who lied about the ratings.--there is only a difference in scale of fraud.

i personally know people who "borrowed" over 300,000 dollars, using their house as an ATM during the fraud period. they walked away from the house and the debt-but who knows where that money went?

some people thought there was a concept called "getting" without working for it, (while others work) and thought it would be sustainable. eventually, you find out that it is an illusion.

everyone wonders what will cause the next crisis-it will be if germany decides that they no longer wish to subsidize the fraud going on in greece or other european countries. all it takes is a simple call by germans NOT to bail out other european countries. the market goes up and down now depending on what it perceives germany will do.

what we need to do here is put the country back on the right track with rewarding good behavior and punishing the bad behavior.

it's a simple concept.
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Old 09-28-2011, 08:39 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,625,449 times
Reputation: 5180
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
would you agree that they are all exploiters? people getting mortgages they know that they cannot afford (a liar's loan) are no different in intent than those who lied about the ratings.--there is only a difference in scale of fraud.

i personally know people who "borrowed" over 300,000 dollars, using their house as an ATM during the fraud period. they walked away from the house and the debt-but who knows where that money went?

some people thought there was a concept called "getting" without working for it, (while others work) and thought it would be sustainable. eventually, you find out that it is an illusion.

everyone wonders what will cause the next crisis-it will be if germany decides that they no longer wish to subsidize the fraud going on in greece or other european countries. all it takes is a simple call by germans NOT to bail out other european countries. the market goes up and down now depending on what it perceives germany will do.

what we need to do here is put the country back on the right track with rewarding good behavior and punishing the bad behavior.

it's a simple concept.
Unfortunately, our country suffers from a lack of morals at all levels.
We seem to have lost all concepts of the reasons why things are right or wrong.
It is difficult to say which came first, corruption at higher levels, or the acceptance of corruption by the people, but the result is the same. A downward spiral of our integrity as a people, and as a country.
We are witnessing the degradation of our country, our standard of living, and our freedoms because we no longer stand for the principals of honesty and fairness.
Today wrong is right, so long as you get what you want, or you achieve success.
At what point did we stop caring about what the consequences of our actions would bring?
I am not sure what the answer to this problem is besides education.
I wish I were more hopeful.
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Old 09-28-2011, 08:50 PM
 
12,869 posts, read 13,680,276 times
Reputation: 4453
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Unfortunately, our country suffers from a lack of morals at all levels.
We seem to have lost all concepts of the reasons why things are right or wrong.
It is difficult to say which came first, corruption at higher levels, or the acceptance of corruption by the people, but the result is the same. A downward spiral of our integrity as a people, and as a country.
We are witnessing the degradation of our country, our standard of living, and our freedoms because we no longer stand for the principals of honesty and fairness.
Today wrong is right, so long as you get what you want, or you achieve success.
At what point did we stop caring about what the consequences of our actions would bring?
I am not sure what the answer to this problem is besides education.
I wish I were more hopeful.
i do agree with this, although i may be a little more hopeful than you.

i know people with good values who aren't getting any attention, and they are just trying to live their lives. it's the squeaky wheels getting the grease now.

all this country needs is a leader with a STRONG MORAL COMPASS to lead.

and this certainly isn't helpful:
As a way to solve the national debt crisis, North Carolina Democratic Gov. Beverly Perdue recommends suspending congressional elections for the next couple of years.

“I think we ought to suspend, perhaps, elections for Congress for two years and just tell them we won’t hold it against them, whatever decisions they make, to just let them help this country recover,” Perdue said at a rotary club event in Cary, North Carolina, according to the Raleigh News & Observer. “I really hope that someone can agree with me on that.” (WTH!)

the above statement is about an america that i don't recognize anymore.


it is true that we have big problems.

we now have a super committee meeting in secret, invasive TSA searches, a patriot act that we "won't like", stealth wars and stealth invasions of other countries, secret spending, secret lending facilities, secret loans, deals for institutional investors (you know who) that others literally cannot get, random currency debasement by an increasingly ineffective federal reserve, and then add the fact that congress is allowed to buy and sell on advance trading knowledge.


leaders have to lead by example. once we get someone who does the right thing--punishes the bad behavior and rewards the good behavior-- we WILL get back on track. americans understand that they are being LOOTED now and some are starting to act inappropriately as a result of fear or anger. (again, many are not)

if the "leaders" won't fix things and make it right, we still have it in our power to FORCE change.
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