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Old 10-14-2011, 05:14 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,624,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus View Post
Of course. However, I don't think protectionism or a trade war is in America's best interests.
Depends on who you think America is.....
If you think, America is the Multi National Corporations then No
If you think, America is the American public, then Yes
The fact that the US is a net importer means less imports = more domestic production = more jobs.
Due to our giant trade deficit, we have little to loose overall in a trade war.
China on the other hand looses its largest customer.
Of course, the Big Corps loose their cheap labor, and the money they invested in factories. Somehow, I find it hard to be too sympathetic about that.
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Old 10-15-2011, 09:32 AM
 
3,457 posts, read 3,285,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Depends on who you think America is.....
If you think, America is the Multi National Corporations then No
If you think, America is the American public, then Yes
The fact that the US is a net importer means less imports = more domestic production = more jobs.
Due to our giant trade deficit, we have little to loose overall in a trade war.
China on the other hand looses its largest customer.
Of course, the Big Corps loose their cheap labor, and the money they invested in factories. Somehow, I find it hard to be too sympathetic about that.
we have a national pie. participating in global trade makes the national pie bigger.

the pie is not distributed well among people in this nation. capital (vs. labor) is getting a disproportionately large share of that national pie, thanks to being favored by the government.

to me, jobs are a problem that can be solved by means other than shrinking the size of the national pie.
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Old 10-15-2011, 10:09 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,624,776 times
Reputation: 5180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus View Post
we have a national pie. participating in global trade makes the national pie bigger.

the pie is not distributed well among people in this nation. capital (vs. labor) is getting a disproportionately large share of that national pie, thanks to being favored by the government.

to me, jobs are a problem that can be solved by means other than shrinking the size of the national pie.
Your logic is faulty, WE ARE A NET IMPORTER. And our trade deficit grows every year. That means (due to so-called free trade) we import massively more than we export.
Globalization makes the national pie smaller. We have fewer factories, we have fewer jobs, and now because of the recession we have a smaller marketplace.
In the real world, problems are broken down and analyzed on a factual basis using cause and effect.
Not you or anyone else can deny we have less jobs, less factories, and a much worse economy than we had before NAFTA , the WTO, and the rest of the trade agreements that Perot warned us about 25 years ago were enacted.
In the world of reality, problems are recognized and dealt with.
In the world of spin and propaganda, problems are denied, facts are spun, and perception is twisted.
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Old 10-15-2011, 02:05 PM
 
2,515 posts, read 1,818,587 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus View Post
we have a national pie. participating in global trade makes the national pie bigger.
Show the mechanism please? I agree with Jimhcom. A trade war will tend to stop the outsourcing of jobs and will tend to start the repatriation of the jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus View Post

the pie is not distributed well among people in this nation. capital (vs. labor) is getting a disproportionately large share of that national pie, thanks to being favored by the government.
There is a line where getting a bigger piece of the pie makes the pie smaller not bigger. The top end has crossed that line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus View Post

to me, jobs are a problem that can be solved by means other than shrinking the size of the national pie.
I think that it makes more sense to say it this way. The shrinking of the national pie is a problem that needs to be solved in order to get more jobs. (You can’t get more jobs and shrink the economy at the same time.)
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Old 10-16-2011, 02:51 PM
 
3,457 posts, read 3,285,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newonecoming2 View Post
Show the mechanism please?
Division of labour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Your logic is faulty, WE ARE A NET IMPORTER.
this has nothing to do with whether or not we are creating wealth.

Quote:
Globalization makes the national pie smaller. We have fewer factories, we have fewer jobs,
The size of the national pie is not measured in factories or jobs, it is measured in wealth.

Whether that wealth creates jobs , or not, is a product of how the pie is divided up.
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Old 10-16-2011, 03:10 PM
 
2,515 posts, read 1,818,587 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus View Post
Thank you. But there is a catch. An idol workforce creates no wealth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus View Post
this has nothing to do with whether or not we are creating wealth.
It has everything to do with the balance of how fast we create vs. consume wealth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus View Post


The size of the national pie is not measured in factories or jobs, it is measured in wealth.
Wealth is the product of skill level times the amount of work performed. With an idol workforce we are not creating wealth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus View Post

Whether that wealth creates jobs , or not, is a product of how the pie is divided up.
Outsourcing creates wealth in other countries not here. Unless we find something more valuable to do here. Wealth is created by people doing things that are valued. Borrowing money that can't be repaid and spending on cheap stuff does not create wealth.
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Old 10-17-2011, 07:43 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,624,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus View Post
Division of labour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



this has nothing to do with whether or not we are creating wealth.



The size of the national pie is not measured in factories or jobs, it is measured in wealth.

Whether that wealth creates jobs , or not, is a product of how the pie is divided up.
What are you talking about? Without government spending expanding to the point where we are in danger of becoming Greece the GDP would be in the toilet! Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

The only wealth being created is for the crooks on Wall St.
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:05 AM
 
12,869 posts, read 13,679,140 times
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this is pretty succinct:

Now let's look at the claim that this will provide "exports" to our economy and thus be of net benefit and bring jobs to America.

What's the history on these claims?

NAFTA was passed in 1994. Our trade imbalance in 1993 was -$70 billion.

One year later, it was nearly $100 billion in the hole, or more than 40% worse.

China's MFN ("Most-favored nation") status was made permanent in 2000. In 1999 we had a $68.7 billion trade deficit with China. One year later it was $83 billion and by 2010 it reached a stunning $273 billion, almost a clean quadruple. Incidentally that's a 15% increase in the deficit with China annually. Did the United States benefit from this?

NO, THE MATHEMATICAL FACTS OF THE MATTER ARE THAT WE GOT SCREWED BLIND IN BOTH EYE SOCKETS.

A combined $2 trillion of capital was drained from the US to China from 2000 to 2010.

Incidentally, you cannot run a trade deficit on a durable basis without a borrowing ponzi somewhere else in your economy, as otherwise the capital drain self-corrects the trade balance.
(denninger)
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Old 10-17-2011, 09:31 AM
 
2,515 posts, read 1,818,587 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
Incidentally, you cannot run a trade deficit on a durable basis without a borrowing ponzi somewhere else in your economy, as otherwise the capital drain self-corrects the trade balance.
(denninger)
What about printing money and then buying debt with the printed money? Foreign central banks have been printing money and that money was used to buy debt in the US with. over the last 10 years the world's monetary base went from $3 trillion to $10 trillion and that printed money was used to buy debt in the US with. Houses were used as the ATM to run the trade deficit with.
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