U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 01-30-2012, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Ohio
22,798 posts, read 16,049,455 times
Reputation: 19294

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boompa View Post
We can process and sell Tar Sand here in America. The pipeline is for the Oil Companies to sell it on the world market. We don't need a pipeline
No, you cannot sell it in the US, for the same reason you export California Heavy, Louisiana Heavy, Oklahoma Heavy, Alaskan North Slope and Uinta Basin Black Wax.

The problem I have with people like you, is that you're allowed to vote, and you don't even know what you're talking about.

There's a reason why you import light oil.

The reason is your heavy oil only yields 6 gallons of gasoline per 42 gallon barrel. Light oil yields 22-24 gallons per barrel. You don't understand that light oil gives you 3.5x as much gasoline per barrel. And you don't understand that if you switched over all of your refineries to refine heavy crude oil, you'd be paying $14/gallon for gasoline. Why? Because you cannot make enough gasoline to meet demand.

And then there's the issue of Sulfur. It costs money to get the Sulfur out of oil. It costs even more to meet EPA guidelines which is 30 ppm for gasoline and 15 ppm for diesel.

That's why you are exporting gasoline and diesel. If you had to pay to remove that Sulfur, then gasoline would cost about $3.75-$4.25/gallon.

So that gasoline and diesel is exported to countries that don't have restrictions on Sulfur content in gasoline and diesel.

And very soon, the EPA is going to implement Tier 3 which limits gasoline to 10 ppm Sulfur. It ain't free to remove the 20 ppm at the present 30 ppm level to get to 10 ppm. You'll be paying for that at the gasoline pump.

The tar sands oil is garbage. It sells for less than Canadian Hardisty, which is pretty sad considering that Canadian Hardisty (an heavy oil) sells for about $65/barrel. Why doesn't it sell for $100/barrel? Um, because it's heavy oil. If you got a hard-on for tar and asphalt, then heavy oil is your thing. If you want gasoline and your Extravagant American Life-Style™, then it's light sweet crude oil or bust.

Frightened by the ignorance...


Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by modeerf View Post
Since records on housing have been kept and collected. 2011 is the WORST housing market in history.
Yeah? So what? If your economy lives and dies by the housing market, then you ain't got an economy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by modeerf View Post
What is this administration doing? NOTHING
That isn't quite true. No administration should ever take any action. However, this Administration continues to interfere in the housing market, and unless and until it stops interfering, your housing market will never recover.

Your labor participation rate has declined form 67.3% to 64.0% and you think people should be buying houses? That's insane. Nobody has even money, and from now through the foreseeable future, people are going to have even less money.

Still frightened by the ignorance...

Mircea
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-30-2012, 08:42 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 27,165,844 times
Reputation: 9224
Mircea is exactly correct in the post above. We Americans look for any fairy tale concerning oil so that we can believe that things can keep on being the way they have been for the last half-century. It ain't gonna happen. We are reaching the end of the suburban/automobile age as we now know it. We need to get over it and move on. The energy we get in the future is going to cost a lot more than what it is does now--period. The cheap, easy stuff has all been produced--it gets way more expensive from now on, from wherever it may come.

The housing market is not going to come back--and it shouldn't. The housing "industry" doesn't produce real wealth, it consumes it. Americans have gone into debt up to their eyeballs to "invest" in a physically depreciating, non-productive "asset." The only way that sham has been propped up is by the Ponzi scheme mortgage bubble that made people think that a house was actually an "investment." Like all Ponzi schemes, it was based on a lie that, once exposed, would cause the scheme to collapse. That is what is upon us now.

Though I disagree with some of his writings, James Kunstler hit the nail right on the head with this week's blog--found here Jive Talkin - Cluster**** Nation . Paragraphs 2 and 3 are particularly salient.

I believe the big shock and fall back to an extremely harsh reality for we Americans is going to come when our Tinker-Toy, duct-taped, baling wire held together economy has something--anything--of significance go any way except absolutely perfect in the next few months. Hi-jinks in the Straits of Hormuz? Something flying apart over in Europe? How about even a little unsavory and illegal election mischief in this country? Any of it could set into motion an economic, political, and social maelstrom that could shake this country to it increasingly creaky, cracked foundation. Only a fool bets on an outcome based on everything just going perfectly, but that exactly where we are in the United States. Anything less than just ****ing perfect puts us in the soup. Hell of a way to run a country.

Last edited by jazzlover; 01-30-2012 at 08:56 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-01-2012, 08:43 AM
 
3,335 posts, read 2,715,510 times
Reputation: 921
Idle hands are the devils playground.

EUobserver.com / Headline News / EU unemployment hits record high
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-01-2012, 11:55 PM
 
4,661 posts, read 3,256,914 times
Reputation: 2960
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuy77 View Post
There's at least one great big factor in the slow-marching economic collapse that you won't likely hear about from the canonical channels of official "news" transmission because it cuts too deep for them. It takes no special genius to see it, but most people will not accept it because they are stuck on the mass media's plantation, and they would sooner believe Dan Rather than their own reason and their own lying eyes. For a mass public awakening we might just have to wait for the dispassionate reports of future historians and anthropologists who won't have any skin in the current game, and who would be perfectly willing to call things what they are...
I watch no televised media, I read books, periodicals and get my info from an array of well respected sources and weigh that with a skeptical eye. People's "own reason and their own lying eyes" are notoriously misleading, as are popular anecdotes.

Assuming everyone else gets their info from biased sources and cannot think for themselves (but you can) is pure hubris.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-02-2012, 12:07 AM
 
4,661 posts, read 3,256,914 times
Reputation: 2960
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
you are assuming that they will get the spending under control? that isn't going to happen, even though it must. as denninger keeps saying in his columns:

Governments must stop spending more than their citizens are willing to pay in taxes, and accept the temporary, albeit painful contraction back to sustainable levels of economic output that must occur.

PERIOD.

to win elections, politicians make promises that they cannot and will not deliver. as i see it, only one politician is trying to deal with the reality of the situation-and that is ron paul.

obama's decision not to allow the pipeline is just another nail in the coffin of this country, destroying yet more jobs that pay enough to live on. the stupidity of destroying future jobs, while still promising tax cuts, is not lost on those of us who are paying attention.

some might even think this disaster coming is being done intentionally so as to not to have to keep false promises made.
This is what I posted: "We need to get spending under control, but that cannot happen if neither side will capitulate on their favorite spending categories. Both entitlements and defense will have to be addressed to have any meaningful impact."

Where is that assumption you read into it?

The XL pipeline has no meaningful impact on our economy or energy independence. Unless of course you believe the tales being spun by TransCanada and the Koch Brothers, who all stand to profit from lying about the number of jobs it will create. First it was 20,000 jobs. Now it has shrunk to "no more than 5000". And independent analysis suggests less than 500 full time US jobs. Why believe anything they say after that?

The dirty crude that will be piped through to the gulf is destined to be shipped out of the US and the pipeline will only carry oil redirected from the current Keystone pipeline, merely a redirect from the Midwest to the Gulf to send off shore.

"...an independent study conducted by the Cornell ILR Global Labor Institute which found that while the Keystone XL would result in 2,500 to 4,650 temporary construction jobs, this impact will be reduced by higher oil prices in the Midwest which will likely reduce national employment. Analysts believe that including the Alberta Clipper pipeline owned by TransCanada's competitor Enbridge, there is an extensive overcapacity of oil pipelines from Canada and after completion of the Keystone XL line oil pipelines to the U.S. will run nearly half-empty.


Due to an exemption the state gave TransCanada, the local authorities would lose $50 million public revenue from property taxes for a decade."


Oh, did I forget to say "PERIOD"?

Last edited by shaker281; 02-02-2012 at 12:29 AM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-02-2012, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Out in the Badlands
10,422 posts, read 9,493,321 times
Reputation: 7780
Quote:
Originally Posted by modeerf View Post
With EU governments scrambling to cover their sins. The people are feeling the pinch.

ALL ONE BIG Distraction.

Our economic system is on the verge of a total collapse. The US taxpayer is being set up to pay the bills of failing Bank investments.

See this video of Reggie Middleton explain the details of our pending financial collapse that will bring about untold worldwide death and suffering.


msnbc.com Video Player

Mike & The Mechanics - Silent running - YouTube
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-02-2012, 12:11 AM
 
4,661 posts, read 3,256,914 times
Reputation: 2960
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
...i think decisions need to be made driven on logic, not fear...
I am tempted to go back and cut and paste all the dire predictions you have made for the last several years. Can you possibly be serious?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-02-2012, 12:14 AM
 
4,661 posts, read 3,256,914 times
Reputation: 2960
Quote:
Originally Posted by modeerf View Post
Since records on housing have been kept and collected.
2011 is the WORST housing market in history.

What is this administration doing? NOTHING>>>>>>

US new-home sales fell in December to make 2011 worst sales year on record - Yahoo! News (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/us-home-sales-fell-december-2011-worst-sales-153542153.html - broken link)
All credible sources have indicated this mess which took many years to create will take even longer to correct. With this administration's opposition claiming they will roadblock this administration on any and all fronts, it may not happen at all.

Last edited by shaker281; 02-02-2012 at 12:27 AM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-02-2012, 12:16 AM
 
4,661 posts, read 3,256,914 times
Reputation: 2960
Quote:
Originally Posted by modeerf View Post
Israel apparently has more than Iran on it's mind.

Cha- ching.... gow!


Specter of Euro Collapse Spurs Emergency Plan: Israel Overnight - BusinessWeek
Wow, now you are going anti-semitic? "Money changers"?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-02-2012, 12:25 AM
 
4,661 posts, read 3,256,914 times
Reputation: 2960
The US is currently a net energy exporter, which belies the fact that the Keystone pipeline is about energy independence/national security/economic growth.

This is huge: Navistar teams up with T. Boone Pickens to sell natural-gas-powered trucks; building fueling stations - chicagotribune.com

Pickens believes that 10% of our national trucking will be on $1.50 a gallon natural gas withing 1 year and 50% in 5 years. This is the direction we need to be heading towards, not tar sand glop.

In addition to everything that Mircea posted about low grade "crude", there are huge issues with the methods and resources necessary for its extraction and transport. The stuff is so thick and nasty it needs to be diluted with higher grade distillates just to allow it to flow in the pipelines.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:42 AM.

© 2005-2021, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top