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Old 12-31-2011, 02:50 PM
 
3,335 posts, read 2,702,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
I agree . We have Corporate Cronyism on the one hand and Socialism on the other. 2 different methods that accomplish the same end of consoiidating wealth, power, and control.
Which is called Collectivism..

Just learned that term. Glad i got to use it. Bought it at Target, it's really nice...
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:23 AM
 
19,337 posts, read 16,941,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitz99clem View Post
Narrowly defined money supply is the money printed by the Fed. More broadly defined it is the money created through the fractional banking system in place. Gov't debt is no more apart of the money supply than any other type of debt. This is due to the independence of the Fed Reserve.
The profits of the FED are returned to the Treasury. Thus to state its no different is wrong. If I charge myself interest is that like when a bank charges me interest? Its a complex facade, but its money and not debt as people routinely think of debt. Of course all money is debt or credit in this system. The only issue is when the economy is at capacity which is not the time for expanding credit because it will compete for resources. However the national debt is not a debt that needs to be paid back. It functions as part of the money supply and is certainly much cheaper than bank credit.
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Old 01-01-2012, 04:57 PM
 
81 posts, read 105,042 times
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Profits returned to the Fed represent only a very small fraction of money in circuation. At the present time this amounts to about $50 billion annually. Total actual money in circulation amounts to $2.7 trillion yet this supports $75 trillion of assets in our economy due to the fractional banking system. The net U.S. government debt accounts for about $10 trillion and is growing by at least $1 trillion annually for the foreseeable future. Do you propose printing $1,000,000,000,000 plus annually to cover the deficit or raising the cash in circulation by 40% per year?

Historically speaking what you appear to be proposing results in hyperinflation. Take a look at the history of Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Argentina, or many other countries that have tried to print their way out of their deficits. The U.S. has largely escaped inflationary pressures due to the recent QE programs due to much of the cash being returned to the Fed due to excess slack in the economy. There's a limit to how much QE can be taken on and the Fed must be mindful of future inflationary pressures. What happens when a trillion dollars has to be taken out of the banking system, but we still have deficits of a trillion dollars annually?
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Old 01-01-2012, 06:47 PM
 
19,337 posts, read 16,941,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitz99clem View Post
Profits returned to the Fed represent only a very small fraction of money in circuation. At the present time this amounts to about $50 billion annually. Total actual money in circulation amounts to $2.7 trillion yet this supports $75 trillion of assets in our economy due to the fractional banking system. The net U.S. government debt accounts for about $10 trillion and is growing by at least $1 trillion annually for the foreseeable future. Do you propose printing $1,000,000,000,000 plus annually to cover the deficit or raising the cash in circulation by 40% per year?
That's not the point. The point is debt to the Fed is mostly a fiction. If we have 75 trillion in the system do you really think 1 trillion is a problem? Its not even 2% an increase in the money supply in the face of about that much in private debt deflation. Its been largely offset since 2008. All money is debt. Its the national debt or bank credit. So its deficits, more private debt or depressions. Pick one. Though it appears house holds are choosing already. They are de-leveraging. Balance the budget and we will have a far worse depression than we have seen yet.

Quote:
Historically speaking what you appear to be proposing results in hyperinflation. Take a look at the history of Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Argentina, or many other countries that have tried to print their way out of their deficits. The U.S. has largely escaped inflationary pressures due to the recent QE programs due to much of the cash being returned to the Fed due to excess slack in the economy. There's a limit to how much QE can be taken on and the Fed must be mindful of future inflationary pressures. What happens when a trillion dollars has to be taken out of the banking system, but we still have deficits of a trillion dollars annually?
Here we go again with hyper inflation. It happens after wars and for external foreign debts in foreign currencies. I am all for stopping ZIRP which does nothing for the domestic economy. Deficits would be absorbed by domestic wage and asset deflation, hardly massive inflation. The only inflationary threat we have is the reserve currency status.

Deficits are a problem when we are at capacity. We are no where near it. I also cannot understand why people keep repeating Wiemar as if losing WWI had nothing to do with it along with the indemnity. Its not an example of fiscal policy. Ditto with Zimbabwe and its civil war. Its not monetary policy that did these countries in.
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:31 PM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,334,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
The national debt isn't a hole. Its the money supply.
Dunno. I am coming to think you are speaking to wall-to-wall airheads.

While they could do something as simple as pulling a dollar bill out of their pocket and see that it says "NOTE" on it, and then look up something as simple as an online dictionary and see that Note = Debt . . .

They still cannot get --

That the Debt IS the Money.

And then idiots like the Tea Party will argue against money during a Deflationary Depression.

America is going to die of stupidity.
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:35 PM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,334,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
...but I'm about ready to change my tune. Sure, we are standing on the summit of Hubble's peak, 16+ trillion dollars in federal debt is a hell of a hole we've dug ourselves and I'm not gonna see a penny of my Social Security in 30 years...

. . . .
First of all it Hubbert. That is the Oil guy.

Hubble -- Like the space telescope -- was an Astronomer.

But back to your topic at hand.

Sound like you are bouncing off the rails from Doomer to Bright-Sided.

You follow what Bright-Sided is?

Neither are particularly sensible positions.
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:38 PM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,334,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Wasn't solar panel production off shored to Mexico for the most part?
China.

Quote:
And isn't most of the oil production used for things other than fuel? Industry requires huge quantities of it. Everything from lubricants to plastics.
US is the largest user of Oil.

Most Oil used by the US is for transportation.

Mostly ground transportation.
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:52 PM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,334,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdelena View Post
Where would the funding come from for the panels . . .
The stuff is getting cheaper than the Central Plant model.

Quote:
... who would clean/maintain them...
Millions unemployed and no one can wash a PV panel? No doubt it would take more illegals. Look, that whole concept is a farce anyway. A rain or garden hose does fine, if they even needed washing, which they rarely do. Maintenance is lower than any other generation source. Why do you even make up this nonsense?

Quote:
who would replace them as they fail...
PV now comes with 25 years warranties. Again, this is better service life than anything in power generation -- except maybe the concrete in a Hydro Dam. And there is already a whole industry of Solar sales and service.

Quote:
who would approve/fund a major overhaul of the grid...
The grid works both ways just fine. It is already profitable and functioning.

Quote:
where would the money come from for the proposal that the utility companies send out checks?
Folks like you who want to keep sending money?

Is that not what you do, now?

Just keep doing what you are doing and everything will be just fine.


Quote:
This is a strategy that is based upon wishful thinking, not a real plan.
Yours does not have any thinking, let alone a plan.

Not trying to be harsh on you, but you have no idea of the topic, do you?
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Old 01-02-2012, 10:32 AM
 
Location: USA
717 posts, read 922,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selhars View Post
I hate to say I'm a "doomer" -- but I'm not too optimistic.

1) The world is just crazy, I guess it always has been, but I'm 50 now it just seems like an awful lot of factors are converging, or will converge in the next couple of decades.

2) NOT to get too religious, I'm just explaining my point. I think man(kind) is basically a base creature with good (Gd spirit) inside. I just think things will get worse. I think the 'last and evil days' are coming.

3) I think America will be a country of haves and have nots to the point of going back to the dark ages and medieval. I DEFINITELY see a time when all who CAN, live in gated, guarded communities, rarely come out...and the poor are carrying torches, roaming and marauding in the streets.

People do crazy things when their economic lives are threatened. (Look at the people killing their families over frigging the mortgage collapse and unemployment situation. That's crazy. One guy killed his gamily on CHRI STMAS DAY, after they'd opened presents, for goodness sake)

All great civilizations and empires have had their hey-day (Egypt, Ottomans, Japan, Britian, Rome, African) -- and their fall. America has been the 'big dog on the block' for a while now -- and will continue to be....for a good while more, MAYBE. But we'd better get our act together!!!

Because the Chinese are no joke.....there are 6 billion of them AND they own a lot of our debt. (ANYONE can see how that can go badly -- and not in our favor)

And India is right on our tail as well....there are 1.3 billion of them.
Brazil is smaller by population but in terms of economies - a player at the world table.
Russia, Iran, North Korea....all wildcards.
The middle east is not economically a challenger -- but we seem bent on always being involved over there -- and of course technology has allowed certain people who are no fans of America to bring their fight to our very shores.

America has always stepped up, met -- and overcome every challenge. But we'd better be very careful going forward.
THIS AINT 1776...or even 1945.

I'm overall sort of pessimistic (because I sure don't see politicians doing jack %#& different).
And since I didn't live during the 'greatest' generation -- to be honest -- I don't know if many Americans would make the sacrifices needed to keep America great if we were really challenged for our world position.

Are we too soft, too pampered, to used to a 'chicken in every pot,' food on the table, and video games to risk our very lives like the colonists did?
ARE WE WILLING TO DIE TO BE FREE, or is being the world's indentured servant "Not so bad, when you think about DYING as the alternative? After all indentured servitude, is better than out-and-out SLAVERY right?

I'm not optimistic long term. But having a certain religious belief, also believe this earthly world is not my home -- I'm "in this world, and not of it" and that WHATEVER happens I'll be OK. Gd is in control. I'm a spirit in a flesh body on this earth for a little while. (Hopefully I won't have to be suffer while I'm here.)
I really liked your post. I share the same worldview as you do, and I certainly believe that things are going to get worse. If you ever want to hear God laugh, just tell him your plans. Reminds me of this morning's weather forecast that included no snow whatsoever, and then we get a nice dusting. This world is not our home, we're just a'passin' through.

And like you, I certainly do not want to be here when the tribulation comes. I don't want to put my hope in man, politicians, people, government, nation, or anything carnal or temporal in this world...because every single one of the aforementioned will either fail, die, or wear away eventually. I can only hope that my parachute is packed and ready to go when I'm ready to check out...and I really wish that others would carefully consider their demise as well even though it's not pleasant.
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:07 PM
 
28,686 posts, read 31,298,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
Whatever happened to all the solar hype in the 1970s? People were getting solar panels on their roofs and then all of a sudden - poof. It was over.

One thing was Reagan put an end to the tax credits for people who got solar. He helped to kill it but I've like to know if the solar back then was greatly inferior to the solar we have now. It still seems to be out of the reach of the average person for affordability.
Yes, today's solar is much more efficient than it was in the 1970s, but it still is more expensive than fossil fuels...although the cost of solar is coming down while fossil fuels is going up; so solar and other renewables are going to become more economical within the next decade.
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