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Old 01-03-2012, 11:30 AM
 
19,337 posts, read 16,934,141 times
Reputation: 7515

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Dunno. I am coming to think you are speaking to wall-to-wall airheads.

While they could do something as simple as pulling a dollar bill out of their pocket and see that it says "NOTE" on it, and then look up something as simple as an online dictionary and see that Note = Debt . . .

They still cannot get --

That the Debt IS the Money.

And then idiots like the Tea Party will argue against money during a Deflationary Depression.

America is going to die of stupidity.
That is what I have come to realize. However my goal is to cause others to suffer as we have. Its painful to watch.

A negotiable promissory note issued by a bank and payable to the bearer on demand. The amount payable is stated on the face of the note. Banknotes are considered legal tender, and, along with coins, make up the bearer forms of all modern money.

Bank debts such as these circulated as good as specie(commodity money). Thus promises became part of and expanded the money supply.
Originally, objects such as gold and silver were used to pay for goods and services. Eventually, they were replaced by paper money and coins that were backed by precious metals.

Currently, banknotes are backed only by the government. Although in earlier times commercial banks could issue banknotes, the Federal Reserve Bank is now the only bank in the United States that can create banknotes.
Banknote Definition | Investopedia


So now that the specie or commodity is gone, all that remains is national debt, treasury notes, da guberment credit, or what ever anyone wants to call it. Its the money.
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Brawndo-Thirst-Mutilator-Nation
18,678 posts, read 18,938,748 times
Reputation: 15663
A solar panel power grid is problematic in many different ways.

When you design the grid, you have to take into consideration the power needs that will be placed upon it. So, you set up the panels so they can supply enough power for peak demands....and add in say a 10% buffer.

But what happens when you have the grid cranking out excess power.....what do you do with the excess??? You have a 10 Megawatt system cranking out max power, but only 80% is being used, the excess capacity is wasted. Could you set up a very, very expensive storage method for excess......yep.....it would cost a ton of money.
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Old 01-03-2012, 03:36 PM
 
Location: WA
5,538 posts, read 22,576,422 times
Reputation: 6288
Quote:
Originally Posted by tickyul View Post
...
But what happens when you have the grid cranking out excess power.....what do you do with the excess??? You have a 10 Megawatt system cranking out max power, but only 80% is being used, the excess capacity is wasted. Could you set up a very, very expensive storage method for excess......yep.....it would cost a ton of money.
You cannot deal with excess power so you avoid it... Here in the PNW we have annual fights regarding who should shut down, the windmills or the hydro, and courts make semi-informed decisions. ...and we still have to have gas fired power plants that stay shut down much of the year but are critical when river flows are down and the wind not blowing. Adding more sporadic generating capacity just increases the demand for grid upgrades to sell the power else where but those upgrades are held up with lawsuits for years because few want big towers over their property. No easy solutions...

BTW, I pay someone else to drill for my water, clean my waste water, pick up the trash, paint my house, etc. ...I am not interested in running a piece of the grid capacity.
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:26 PM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,330,951 times
Reputation: 4478
Quote:
Originally Posted by tickyul View Post
A solar panel power grid is problematic in many different ways.

When you design the grid, you have to take into consideration the power needs that will be placed upon it. So, you set up the panels so they can supply enough power for peak demands....and add in say a 10% buffer.

But what happens when you have the grid cranking out excess power.....what do you do with the excess??? You have a 10 Megawatt system cranking out max power, but only 80% is being used, the excess capacity is wasted. Could you set up a very, very expensive storage method for excess......yep.....it would cost a ton of money.
This gets goofier by the day.

There is a lot of wasted power on the grid. So what?

Nukes and Coal plants run all night.

They just dump the power.

As cd pointed out, wind goes surplus and that is just dumped.

Why do you think you need to store power any more than you would need to store sunlight?

Tomorrow you just get a fresh batch.

But some of our areas for study have been H2.
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:29 PM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,330,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdelena View Post
No easy solutions...
Underground and underwater work fine.

Quote:
BTW, I pay someone else to drill for my water, clean my waste water, pick up the trash, paint my house, etc. ...I am not interested in running a piece of the grid capacity.
And plenty of folks are happy to take the money.

Sounds like it will work out fine.
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:30 PM
 
Location: southern california
61,307 posts, read 79,388,460 times
Reputation: 55458
high tech miracle just around the corner. no need for austerity keep writing those rubber checks.
yep those big fat americans are guna leap outa those SUV 10 mph gas guzzlers and start buying the electric clown cars tomarrow morning by the millions, no doubt about it.
sounds like sound economic policy to me, no problem re elect obama yeah sure makes sense.
the magic feather sho nuf.
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:05 PM
 
5,931 posts, read 5,608,654 times
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So let me guess this right, 10,000 years of human innovations and social development brought us (and higher life forms) on the brink of physical survival (and that's not an exaggeration). BUT, if we'll "innovate" just little, tiny bit more along the same 10,000 years old "paradigm" of domination and control everything would just fall in its place, salvation and nirvana. I think this kind of "optimism" fits Albert Enstein's definition of insanity as in "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

If we will not change our mindsets ANY technology short of a warp drive and space travel brings us closer and closer to the edge of the cliff of survival. Human technologies are notorious for creating 10 new problems for every one new solutions. For time being problems are just snowballing. But the time will come (rather sooner than later) when the snowball of unintended consequences will become big enough to crash us.

Electric batteries and solar cell depend on rare Earth metals. Oil is not the only thing that "peaks". Most of the industrially important rare Earth will be exhausted and dispersed in 30-50 years. Let's for the sake of argument assume that solar is 100% success, unintended consequences of the cheap energy supply would overweigh benefits 10 to 1, as usual. I have a very bad Thermodynamics 101 news for Everyone, Earth fine tuned its energy balance for eons. There is NO "extra" solar energy for hairless monkeys to tap into without causing major disruptions (we cannot even predict).

If coming back to senses is so much below our "civilization", we should throw everything we've got at a "Warp drive". Spreading the plague into space is the only our hope.

Last edited by RememberMee; 01-03-2012 at 11:19 PM..
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Brawndo-Thirst-Mutilator-Nation
18,678 posts, read 18,938,748 times
Reputation: 15663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
This gets goofier by the day.

There is a lot of wasted power on the grid. So what?

Nukes and Coal plants run all night.

They just dump the power.

As cd pointed out, wind goes surplus and that is just dumped.

Why do you think you need to store power any more than you would need to store sunlight?

Tomorrow you just get a fresh batch.

But some of our areas for study have been H2.

So what.....try reading my first post.

Duh.....you have to set up the grid for PEAK DEMAND, that is expensive. And when you have an infastructure that is designed for a certain peak demand, and the system fulfills that demand and MORE.....it is very inefficient if you cannot capture excess energy.

A traditional powerplant can go on/off line as needed.
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:29 AM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,330,951 times
Reputation: 4478
Quote:
Originally Posted by tickyul View Post
So what.....try reading my first post.

Duh.....you have to set up the grid for PEAK DEMAND, that is expensive. And when you have an infastructure that is designed for a certain peak demand, and the system fulfills that demand and MORE.....it is very inefficient if you cannot capture excess energy.

A traditional powerplant can go on/off line as needed.
Easiest way to drop the Peak Demand on the grid is by taking the Air Conditioning (that is THE Peak Demand) and going direct Solar Thermal with it.

Some on that >>>

Sopogy MicroCSP - Technology behind Energy - SOLUTIONS

At any rate, the grid is designed to fulfill that Peak Demand from Air Conditioning -- and MORE (as you say) with intent. We have to live in surplus for the risk of a major plant or line failure -- we still have to keep the rest of the system up.

Seriously, I work and design in this field. My customers include the biggest power companies in the US. We are required to have reserve capacity, even at Peak. All areas of the country come under what are called Electric Reliability Councils, and they require we operate at a surplus.

As far as traditional power plants going on/off line -- Once a Coal or Nuke is up and running, we run them steady. Only gas --typically a Gas Turbine is cycled on and off for the Daily Peak. Dams can also be used as peakers.

But in all that, Solar does not risk somehow saturating the already surplus market for decades ahead, and the only question at this point is how to take out the old surplus Coal and Nuke plants.
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Old 01-04-2012, 06:48 AM
 
Location: State of Being
35,883 posts, read 70,039,595 times
Reputation: 22557
Many areas of this country do not have weather that is suitable for dependency (even partial dependency) on solar panels. Start there, lol.
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