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Old 01-08-2012, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
17,993 posts, read 16,466,713 times
Reputation: 17885

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
Be honest. What do those people look like in your head when you think about them? I'll bet not like you and your family, right?
Well, in my extended family, I have a relative that managed to have three children in three years. Husband is unemployed, and the relative doesn't earn much. They are your typical low income household, and are getting plenty of state benefits and support from the family to get by. They are white by the way.
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Old 01-08-2012, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,661 posts, read 78,446,455 times
Reputation: 36331
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
I'm as conservative as they come, at least among my age bracket. But at the same time, I do believe our society can afford at least the basics with regards to health and longevity. The current health care system is totally out of whack with regards to expense, so it makes it completely unaffordable for the average wage earner. It's a market out of equilibrium. Something about that has to change, but I am no economist. I do believe in progress though. Health care expenses rising so drastically over the past few decades is not progress though, but it has been very profitable for somebody. Judging by the number of doctors I know leaving the profession, I don't think they have been on the winning side of the equation...

If the consumer is unhappy, and the provider of the service is unhappy... Makes ya think someone needs to take a closer look, correct?
All of the money the Americans pay for health care, $3-trillion a year and expected to double in a decade, is all existing wealth being recirculated. A $100K kidney transplant, that money isn't just being shot out into space, it is paying the actual costs of the facilities, equipment and personnel, and it remains in the economy for wages for workers who work for the hospital building contractors, lab equipment manufacturers, and medical and administrative staff. There isn't anybody who is grabbing too much of that moneh. Well, there is, but the margin is smallish and closing the gap would not solve the cashflow problem.

We have to stop paying for so many medical procedures, because that $5-trillion is too large a chunk of the available wealth that needs to pay for all the elements of quality of life. Supposing every American had become accustomed to having a $300K Italian racing car, or every American child a horsie. The impact on the economy would he unendurable, and there would be a perfectly sound way to ameliorate it---stop entitling every American to a Lambo or a horse barn.

We can't afford the sports cars and horses, no matter how much they improve our lives. Just as we can't afford all those organ transplants, and years of nursing home care, and an MRI backing up every medical diagnosis.

When the cumulative total of all the things Americans feel an entitlement to rises above the amount of wealth available to pay for it, our expectations are going to have to be pared back.

Again to the main point. Every cent of our health care comes, ultimately, out of the pockets of the patients. It doesn't matter whether the final check is written by the patient, the government, or an insurance company. It'll still be $3-trillion. "The Consumer" is the collective mindset of all the people, expressed as what they are willing to pay for. If they're unhappy and don't want to pay, stop buying. Stop calling the 800-number in the middle of the night and ordering what you can't afford, just because you can't resist the sales pitch..

Last edited by jtur88; 01-08-2012 at 04:13 PM..
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Old 01-08-2012, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
16,517 posts, read 21,977,509 times
Reputation: 8726
Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
Getting employers out of health care insurance is the first step in creating a competitive market for health insurance. This also would eliminate arguments that employers are not hiring because of uncertainty with future health insurance premiums. Cost control and service improvement will only occur if true competition is taking place both among providers and payors.
Even WALMART said they would back a plan if it were single payer. One of the problems American businesses have competing with other countries is that the competition doesn't have to bankroll healthcare
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:27 PM
 
5,725 posts, read 9,114,960 times
Reputation: 7981
It is my understanding that the US bears much of the cost of R&D for the rest of the world...
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Old 01-09-2012, 07:57 AM
 
2,592 posts, read 4,860,940 times
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I can answer the question very short and easy. The program with government run healthcare is?...that it is run/controlled by the government.
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Northern Appalachia
6,564 posts, read 7,417,893 times
Reputation: 8051
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
All of the money the Americans pay for health care, $3-trillion a year and expected to double in a decade, is all existing wealth being recirculated. A $100K kidney transplant, that money isn't just being shot out into space, it is paying the actual costs of the facilities, equipment and personnel, and it remains in the economy for wages for workers who work for the hospital building contractors, lab equipment manufacturers, and medical and administrative staff. There isn't anybody who is grabbing too much of that moneh. Well, there is, but the margin is smallish and closing the gap would not solve the cashflow problem.

We have to stop paying for so many medical procedures, because that $5-trillion is too large a chunk of the available wealth that needs to pay for all the elements of quality of life. Supposing every American had become accustomed to having a $300K Italian racing car, or every American child a horsie. The impact on the economy would he unendurable, and there would be a perfectly sound way to ameliorate it---stop entitling every American to a Lambo or a horse barn.

We can't afford the sports cars and horses, no matter how much they improve our lives. Just as we can't afford all those organ transplants, and years of nursing home care, and an MRI backing up every medical diagnosis.

When the cumulative total of all the things Americans feel an entitlement to rises above the amount of wealth available to pay for it, our expectations are going to have to be pared back.

Again to the main point. Every cent of our health care comes, ultimately, out of the pockets of the patients. It doesn't matter whether the final check is written by the patient, the government, or an insurance company. It'll still be $3-trillion. "The Consumer" is the collective mindset of all the people, expressed as what they are willing to pay for. If they're unhappy and don't want to pay, stop buying. Stop calling the 800-number in the middle of the night and ordering what you can't afford, just because you can't resist the sales pitch..
I understand what you are saying and I agree with it up until the end. Telling people to stop buying healthcare will not work if they don't see the bill for the service. Some of the cost of healthcare could be reduced if people didin't expect everything to be paid for. I'm guilty of this. I had multiple Synvisc injections in my knee, had a couple MRIs, and then had arthroscopic surgery for a torn meniscus. This was thousands of dollars in expenses that I paid minimal copays. I had this done so I could continue to run and play basketball. Unfortunately, this type of expense is not the biggest part of the $3-trillion bill that you describe. The largest expense of healthcare is for end of life care.
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Old 01-09-2012, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
17,993 posts, read 16,466,713 times
Reputation: 17885
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
All of the money the Americans pay for health care, $3-trillion a year and expected to double in a decade, is all existing wealth being recirculated. A $100K kidney transplant, that money isn't just being shot out into space, it is paying the actual costs of the facilities, equipment and personnel, and it remains in the economy for wages for workers who work for the hospital building contractors, lab equipment manufacturers, and medical and administrative staff. There isn't anybody who is grabbing too much of that moneh. Well, there is, but the margin is smallish and closing the gap would not solve the cashflow problem.

We have to stop paying for so many medical procedures, because that $5-trillion is too large a chunk of the available wealth that needs to pay for all the elements of quality of life. Supposing every American had become accustomed to having a $300K Italian racing car, or every American child a horsie. The impact on the economy would he unendurable, and there would be a perfectly sound way to ameliorate it---stop entitling every American to a Lambo or a horse barn.

We can't afford the sports cars and horses, no matter how much they improve our lives. Just as we can't afford all those organ transplants, and years of nursing home care, and an MRI backing up every medical diagnosis.

When the cumulative total of all the things Americans feel an entitlement to rises above the amount of wealth available to pay for it, our expectations are going to have to be pared back.

Again to the main point. Every cent of our health care comes, ultimately, out of the pockets of the patients. It doesn't matter whether the final check is written by the patient, the government, or an insurance company. It'll still be $3-trillion. "The Consumer" is the collective mindset of all the people, expressed as what they are willing to pay for. If they're unhappy and don't want to pay, stop buying. Stop calling the 800-number in the middle of the night and ordering what you can't afford, just because you can't resist the sales pitch..
You have a few options available to tackle these issues... Sensible options anyways. Reduce the bloated bureaucracy in health care, reduce the end of life spending (when the return on money spent is the worst), and look into how the insurance industry effects the cost of services provided.

My hope is that it doesn't come to a point when, if you don't have money, your life isn't worth saving. Capitalism and ethics can coexist, much to the dismay of some folks.
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:45 PM
 
455 posts, read 1,155,755 times
Reputation: 430
Personally I think the biggest issue is the fact that our politicians are inherently corrupt.

So if we spend 200$ billion on universal healthcare, how much of that money actually ends up delivering service to the patients? Truth be told, most of the money will go down a black hole to union thugs, suppliers, unnecessary management etc.

Just look at what happened to solyndra.
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Old 01-10-2012, 02:36 AM
 
28,691 posts, read 31,304,402 times
Reputation: 29720
Quote:
Originally Posted by wawaweewa View Post
All nonsense.

The problem with healthcare in the US is people not giving a **** about themselves for 50 years and then wanting and getting high cost procedures in their 70's and 80's.

This **** costs money. Who do you think it paying for it? One bypass surgery and all of its associated pre and post op procedure eats up all of the tax money that the patient paid in their working lifetime.

Who pays for the guys 2nd bypass or his knee or hip replacement? That cost then becomes distributed across all consumers of healthcare.

The young are paying for the old. The fit are paying for the fat. The ascetic are paying for the gluttonous.

Our system is ****ed up. Government run or not.
If people had to pay directly out of pocket for their care and there was no insurance or government subsidies, costs would drop 50% and people would be healthier.

We have a lifstyle problem in the US, which manifests itself in the form of high health care costs. Agricultural subsidies for corn exacerbate the problem as corn makes us fat.
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Old 01-10-2012, 02:38 AM
 
28,691 posts, read 31,304,402 times
Reputation: 29720
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55 View Post
We should be asking ourselves why Europe and Canada can cover everyone at a lower cost than the US pays for covering 83%. Lower overhead is one reason. Better preventive care may be another. Note: Obamacare did not follow Europe's model but is pretty much a carbon copy of Massachusetts plan put into place by Romney.
This is true. Although I saw Romney admit in an interview a few years ago that MA did NOTHING to address the cost issue.

Americans still have this mentality that guaranteeing insurance to everyone will fix the health care cost problem. It won't.
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