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Old 01-10-2012, 02:41 AM
 
28,691 posts, read 31,304,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I don't understand why so many people have such a problem with this very simple principle:

Americans believe they are entitled to more health care than they can afford to pay for. It doesn't matter who writes the check---you, your government, or your insurance company---when there is not enough money, you can no longer demand bloated and expensive medical treatment and procedures. You'll have to start making decisions about what medical care you can afford, and resigning yourself to the fact that some day you will get sick and suffer discomfort and die. You can't keep borrowing non-existent money to buy immortality.

This is totally true. But we all know that humans want to believe in something for nothing. That's why we should never have abandoned the model of paying directly out of pocket during World War 2.

Nowadays, American's don't even know what their care costs, and most don't care if it's not coming directly out of their pockets.
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Old 01-10-2012, 02:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Themanwithnoname View Post
It is my understanding that the US bears much of the cost of R&D for the rest of the world...
Eh...true to a point...but I don't think that's what's really driving the high costs.

The best book on healthcare I've read is:

Who Killed Health Care? by Regina Herzlinger

Amazon.com: Who Killed Health Care?: America's $2 Trillion Medical Problem - and the Consumer-Driven Cure (9780071487801): Regina Herzlinger: Books
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
I understand what you are saying and I agree with it up until the end. Telling people to stop buying healthcare will not work if they don't see the bill for the service. Some of the cost of healthcare could be reduced if people didin't expect everything to be paid for. I'm guilty of this. I had multiple Synvisc injections in my knee, had a couple MRIs, and then had arthroscopic surgery for a torn meniscus. This was thousands of dollars in expenses that I paid minimal copays. I had this done so I could continue to run and play basketball. Unfortunately, this type of expense is not the biggest part of the $3-trillion bill that you describe. The largest expense of healthcare is for end of life care.
Exactly .

And it turns out a healthy lifestyle can lead to reduced health care costs throughout a person's entire life span.

Studies on long lived populations throughout the world found that these folks lived to old age are were less prone to just about every type of disease we associate with old age (alzheimer's, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, etc.).

In short, the way to die old and in your sleep without needing to be dependent on expensive pills/treatments is to live a healthy lifestyle.


Dan Buettner: How to live to be 100+ - YouTube


The book that the above video is based on is called The Blue Zones:


http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Zones-Les...6186136&sr=8-1
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Northern Appalachia
6,564 posts, read 7,417,893 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
This is true. Although I saw Romney admit in an interview a few years ago that MA did NOTHING to address the cost issue.

Americans still have this mentality that guaranteeing insurance to everyone will fix the health care cost problem. It won't.
But isn't making sure that everyone has health insurance one component of the solution? There is a problem when people can buy affordable health insurance. They typically go without preventative healthcare but when they eventually get a serious illness, they end up on life support in a hospital. Diabetes and renal failure are two examples of this that end up costing society more because of people not having insurance.
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:03 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Themanwithnoname View Post
They keep saying that... and the people I know in those countries keep telling me otherwise.

I know who I'm listening to!
based on my friends and family in other countries, they are getting good healthcare services and have lower costs than we do. the area that the U.S. exceeds other countries is emergency care.
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:07 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 19,481,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I don't understand why so many people have such a problem with this very simple principle:

Americans believe they are entitled to more health care than they can afford to pay for. It doesn't matter who writes the check---you, your government, or your insurance company---when there is not enough money, you can no longer demand bloated and expensive medical treatment and procedures. You'll have to start making decisions about what medical care you can afford, and resigning yourself to the fact that some day you will get sick and suffer discomfort and die. You can't keep borrowing non-existent money to buy immortality.
what health care do Americans believe they are entitled to that the citizens in other countries don't receive under their structures?
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:10 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 19,481,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
It doesn't help when you see said disenfranchised folks lugging around six or seven kids. I cannot afford to have children comfortably, and how could I, I'm paying for everyone elses That is not about race, it is about common sense and good judgment. Some folks are simply poor due to their own actions. Sharing resources with SOME of them would only encourage more irresponsible behavior. How the illegals get on the dole of the public dollar is as much a mystery as it is infuriating as well.
I don't see anyone in NJ with 6 or 7 kids. I do see a lot of the current R primary candidates with that many or more though! who are these disenfranchised folks you see with 6 kids? take a picture next time.
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:25 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a34dadsf View Post
Personally I think the biggest issue is the fact that our politicians are inherently corrupt.

So if we spend 200$ billion on universal healthcare, how much of that money actually ends up delivering service to the patients? Truth be told, most of the money will go down a black hole to union thugs, suppliers, unnecessary management etc.

Just look at what happened to solyndra.
solyndra wasn't "most of the money", it was around 1%.
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
But isn't making sure that everyone has health insurance one component of the solution?.
No, not necessarily. Freeing up health care markets so that we have a true free market in health care is the real solution, IMO. What we have right now is a mix of Crony Capitalism & Socialism, both of which result in high costs and poor quality. It's possible now to travel to another country and pay cash out of pocket for great health care at a fraction of the cost in the US, and that's true even with air fare & acommodation costs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
There is a problem when people can buy affordable health insurance..
Correct. The government taking it over doesn't make it more affordable. It just spreads the financial pain around more evenly. That might be helpful in the short run, but it does nothing to contain costs. We already know from our experience with Medicare/Medicaid that our government is not doing any better at containing costs than the private (but rigged) market.

Furthermroe, what drives insurance costs up, in part is that insurance "covered" more and more things that people used to pay for out of pocket.

Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
This results in people using more health care than they really need. They typically go without preventative healthcare but when they eventually get a serious illness.
If we had a true free market health care system, paying out of pocket to go to the doctor would be more affordable. Problem would be (mostly) solved. The other component of this is that our whole notion of "preventative care" needs to change. Preventative care starts with the food you put in your mouth and the lifestyle you live. Cultures where healthy lifestyles are practiced don't need nearly as many treatments as your typical American does. See my youtube video in an earlier post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
they end up on life support in a hospital. Diabetes and renal failure are two examples of this that end up costing society more because of people not having insurance.
And my point is over 90% of diabetes is preventable. I'm not just making that up. Scientists are finding the same thing:

Key to Affordable Health Care Revealed | LiveScience
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:31 PM
 
28,691 posts, read 31,304,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
based on my friends and family in other countries, they are getting good healthcare services and have lower costs than we do..
I don't doubt that for a minute. However, I think it's an awfully big leap of faith to assume that if we adopted one of their systems that we'd have the same experience. The US government is not efficient at doing much of anything, really. The evidence is overwhelming. Just look at Medicare/Medicaid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
The area that the U.S. exceeds other countries is emergency care.
Probably true. We're a country that operates in crisis mode in just about every aspect of life, unfortunately. We're good in a crisis....horrible at preventing them.
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