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Old 01-10-2012, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Northern Appalachia
6,556 posts, read 7,408,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
No, not necessarily. Freeing up health care markets so that we have a true free market in health care is the real solution, IMO. What we have right now is a mix of Crony Capitalism & Socialism, both of which result in high costs and poor quality. It's possible now to travel to another country and pay cash out of pocket for great health care at a fraction of the cost in the US, and that's true even with air fare & acommodation costs.

I think we can and need to have more competition in health insurance and some aspects of healthcare. It will never be a true market economy for healthcare because of a lack of hospital competition in small towns. Insurance companies are forced to contract with the sole provider.

Correct. The government taking it over doesn't make it more affordable. It just spreads the financial pain around more evenly. That might be helpful in the short run, but it does nothing to contain costs. We already know from our experience with Medicare/Medicaid that our government is not doing any better at containing costs than the private (but rigged) market.

Medicare is actually more cost effective than private insurance. It has considerably less overhead and administrative cost.

Furthermroe, what drives insurance costs up, in part is that insurance "covered" more and more things that people used to pay for out of pocket.

Exactly. This is a key issue that needs to get fixed to allow for competition. People don't expect their car insurance to pay for oil changes.

If we had a true free market health care system, paying out of pocket to go to the doctor would be more affordable. Problem would be (mostly) solved. The other component of this is that our whole notion of "preventative care" needs to change. Preventative care starts with the food you put in your mouth and the lifestyle you live. Cultures where healthy lifestyles are practiced don't need nearly as many treatments as your typical American does. See my youtube video in an earlier post.

Part of this is how healthcare is reimbursed under our "fee for service" reimbursement system. Hospitals and insurance companies pay lip service to preventative care but but hospitals don't get paid for it and it is easier for insurance companies to just raise premiums.

And my point is over 90% of diabetes is preventable. I'm not just making that up. Scientists are finding the same thing:

Key to Affordable Health Care Revealed | LiveScience
The trouble is many people lack the education and understanding to know how to prevent diabetes or what to do once they have it. I would like to see our schools do more in this area but that's a whole new discussion.
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:56 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
I don't doubt that for a minute. However, I think it's an awfully big leap of faith to assume that if we adopted one of their systems that we'd have the same experience. The US government is not efficient at doing much of anything, really. The evidence is overwhelming. Just look at Medicare/Medicaid.




Probably true. We're a country that operates in crisis mode in just about every aspect of life, unfortunately. We're good in a crisis....horrible at preventing them.
i don't know that looking at medicare/medicaid is evidence of the government not doing something well. those programs actually provide pretty great healthcare services for the people I know currently utilizing them. it's not perfect, but it's one of the best situations people can be in currently in this country from a healthcare point of view.

I don't know if the same systems adopted here would fix things. but i know it's not that terrible of an idea to try it vs. the status quo. we'll never get there though because the industry lobbyists don't want that. and who do our politicians answer to? Even Obamacare mostly just made insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies happier.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
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I don't know how anyone can call Medicare a failure. If Congress would allow them to force service and drug charges down like the VA does it would cut costs immensly. When you consider that every 8th dollar that United Health Care takes in goes to the CEOs Salary it is the Insurance that is the drag.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Vermont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libohove90 View Post
Do you agree? Or am I just entirely wrong? Thanks for the input.
No, you're wrong, and I'll just give one example of why.

I don't know what you call "government-run health care", but we do know that the various public programs are able to provide health care with a much lower administrative cost than the insurance companies.

In other words, insisting that we keep the insurance companies in our system is demanding that we remain more inefficient than we should be.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
16,516 posts, read 21,967,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
solyndra wasn't "most of the money", it was around 1%.
Nothing compared to the $5 Billion Medicare Fraud Rick Scotts company was CONVICTED of
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Old 01-10-2012, 02:22 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 19,473,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
The trouble is many people lack the education and understanding to know how to prevent diabetes or what to do once they have it. I would like to see our schools do more in this area but that's a whole new discussion.
schools can't prevent diabetes. you've got the food industry lobbying to count a slice a pizza as a vegetable serving. you've got angry taxpayers yelling at schools to cut services (so sports programs, gym, etc. usually suffer). it's a sad state of affairs...
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Old 01-10-2012, 05:00 PM
 
Location: Northern Appalachia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boompa View Post
Nothing compared to the $5 Billion Medicare Fraud Rick Scotts company was CONVICTED of
I can't make too much of a connection between Solyndra and Columbia/HCA, where Rick Scott was CEO. Columbia/HCA was the world's largest health care provider while Solyndra manufactured solar energy products. Columbia/HCA was found guilty of fraudulently billing Medicare and giving kickbacks to doctors for referring patients. Scott resigned with a $10M severance and was not charged with anything. Columbia/HCA was found guilty paid a $650M fine, changed their name, went public and is now a very profitable company. Solyndra went bankrupt last year after receiving a $635M government loan. They are being sued by former employees and investigated by the government. Where is the connection?
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Old 01-10-2012, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Northern Appalachia
6,556 posts, read 7,408,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
schools can't prevent diabetes. you've got the food industry lobbying to count a slice a pizza as a vegetable serving. you've got angry taxpayers yelling at schools to cut services (so sports programs, gym, etc. usually suffer). it's a sad state of affairs...
Right, schools can't prevent diabetes but in 13 years of school, don't you think schools could do a better job of educating children about diet and exercise? I can think of a lot of subjects and projects that kids do in school today that could be replaced by a solid education on health issues. This is the only opportunity many people will ever have to learn about proper nutrition, the benefits of exercise and the consequences of diabetes. This forum is a good starting place. //www.city-data.com/forum/diabetes/
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:44 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
16,516 posts, read 21,967,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
I can't make too much of a connection between Solyndra and Columbia/HCA, where Rick Scott was CEO. Columbia/HCA was the world's largest health care provider while Solyndra manufactured solar energy products. Columbia/HCA was found guilty of fraudulently billing Medicare and giving kickbacks to doctors for referring patients. Scott resigned with a $10M severance and was not charged with anything. Columbia/HCA was found guilty paid a $650M fine, changed their name, went public and is now a very profitable company. Solyndra went bankrupt last year after receiving a $635M government loan. They are being sued by former employees and investigated by the government. Where is the connection?
Just as it was hard for me to connect Solyandra to the subject
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:36 PM
 
28,668 posts, read 31,275,393 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
i don't know that looking at medicare/medicaid is evidence of the government not doing something well. those programs actually provide pretty great healthcare services for the people I know currently utilizing them. it's not perfect, but it's one of the best situations people can be in currently in this country from a healthcare point of view..
But you're not looking at it from a cost standpoint. The costs are simply not sustainable (whether it be Medicare/Medicaid or private insurance) and there's no way around that. We can't just look the other way and pretend the costs don't matter. We've been doing that for 40 years now. It's not working. Just about every economist from across the political spectrum says that Medicare is not financially sustainable in its current form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
I don't know if the same systems adopted here would fix things. but i know it's not that terrible of an idea to try it vs. the status quo. we'll never get there though because the industry lobbyists don't want that. and who do our politicians answer to? Even Obamacare mostly just made insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies happier.
I think it's a terrible idea because once the government takes something over, it is not held accountable and you never get the necessary reforms. Politicians from Lyndon B. Johnson to George W. Bush to President Obama have been throwing more and more money at the public health care systems to keep voters happy. But no one has made the system responsive or accountable for costs. And your average voter, not knowing or caring about the true costs of the system, will look the other way until there's an abolute crisis. Your average voter thinks diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, etc. are just normal aspects of aging that you just take a pill for, instead of viewing these diseases as being primarily rooted in poor diet/lifestyle. Once the government takes something over, you never get it back until/unless the system totally collapses and takes the rest of our economy with it.
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