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Old 01-22-2012, 03:41 PM
 
5,931 posts, read 5,612,221 times
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Strange question. Just look around do you see many folks with a permanent job working less than 40 hours? Nope, people with permanent jobs work way more not less than 40 hours as automation, outsourcing and wealth concentration progresses. Deepening excess labor pool doesn't lead to less work, those with a job work more (scared to even think about 40 hours week not to be canned), those with temporary jobs work less, the number of folks without (good) jobs mushrooms as we speak. It's simple economics, two 25 hours/week temps are not always cheaper (or more productive) than a single (scared as hell of losing his job to boot) wage unit. France used to have 35 hours work week to spread economic pie more evenly, yet even French industrialists threw a fit (think about a mega fit "communism is coming" that American money bags would throw). Capitalists like labor to be abundant and desperate, mandating 30 hours work week is not something that they would tolerate (despite having plenty of 30hrs/week temps at their disposal).

How modern economies "cope" with automation, outsourcing & concentration of wealth (a.k.a. less jobs)

1) Marketing from cradle to grave fueling never ending new wants for unessential, silly, fraudulent, redundant products and services. Marketing itself is a major job creator.
2) Commodification of all aspects of human existence. Everything, literally everything (from child care to elderly care, from emotions, hopes & frustrations to a need to talk to someone is a business opportunity). Effectively "developed" West cannibalized western society to generate economic and Job growth. The greater GDP the more psychologically miserable the "developed" world becomes (here we go, what a wonderful "opportunity" for anti-depressants makers, shrinks and "counselors" (freaking hate this word, 150% hate it) they would fix you up, for a fee, naturally. GDP will be booming).
3. Manufacturing and distribution of cheap, not lasting, not repairable junk. Lots and lots of jobs.
4. Last but not the least. Think Government as the major job creator (both directly and indirectly). All those laws, regulations, license requirements, government contracts etc. generate tens of millions jobs.
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:42 PM
 
36 posts, read 59,036 times
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Many places also never allow overtime as it cost them more.
Instead they hire temps from a temp service, work them the 90 days and let them go so they don't have to hire them full time.
Then they hire more temps from another service and do the same.
90 days later they ask the first service to send back those temps they had befor as they allready know the job and have to work for the lower wage with no bennies like insurance.
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Old 01-22-2012, 05:42 PM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,335,019 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincolnian View Post
60 hrs work for 40 hrs pay seems to be popular with many big companies that received tax breaks and are sitting on record amounts of cash.
Unless you have both the brains and balls to say the magic word . . . "No."
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Old 01-22-2012, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Central CT, sometimes NH.
3,736 posts, read 5,554,932 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Unless you have both the brains and balls to say the magic word . . . "No."
Not always easy to do. I used to work for a big corporation where there was a constant threat of layoffs and when people were laid off they walked them right through the office as a reminder. That was 15 years ago. A few of my friends are still there. The pressure is even greater today. Many work 6 days a week, 10 hours a day and give back unused vacation days. It is not even the case that they are busy but they are expected to be there to show that they are loyal employees.

The competitor to this company is even more ruthless. A friend of mine works for this company. He typically works a minimum of 60 hours a week. They instituted a health care policy a few years ago that forces employees on to a spouse's plan if they have one. Ironically, this company has a health insurance division yet shirks its responsibility to its own employees. It has record cash on its books and received bailout money.

Many of these jobs are highly specialized and the skills are not easily transferable into another job in another field especially for workers in their late 40s and 50s.
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:33 PM
 
3,327 posts, read 3,793,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincolnian View Post
Not always easy to do. I used to work for a big corporation where there was a constant threat of layoffs and when people were laid off they walked them right through the office as a reminder. That was 15 years ago. A few of my friends are still there. The pressure is even greater today. Many work 6 days a week, 10 hours a day and give back unused vacation days. It is not even the case that they are busy but they are expected to be there to show that they are loyal employees.

The competitor to this company is even more ruthless. A friend of mine works for this company. He typically works a minimum of 60 hours a week. They instituted a health care policy a few years ago that forces employees on to a spouse's plan if they have one. Ironically, this company has a health insurance division yet shirks its responsibility to its own employees. It has record cash on its books and received bailout money.

Many of these jobs are highly specialized and the skills are not easily transferable into another job in another field especially for workers in their late 40s and 50s.
Ask yourself this then.

How did these workers in their 40's and 50's put themselves in such a position? Is it because they bought hat 2nd or 3rd car or that McMansion or that unlimited data plan plus the full on Cable TV package at home or buy their kids unlimited data plans and cars?

No wage is going to be sufficient when one is always spending more than he is earning. It seems that many Americans do just that.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
17,993 posts, read 16,466,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wawaweewa View Post
Ask yourself this then.

How did these workers in their 40's and 50's put themselves in such a position? Is it because they bought hat 2nd or 3rd car or that McMansion or that unlimited data plan plus the full on Cable TV package at home or buy their kids unlimited data plans and cars?

No wage is going to be sufficient when one is always spending more than he is earning. It seems that many Americans do just that.
What position are you speaking of exactly? Sounds like these guys are between a rock and a hard place. Won't be easy to find another job at their age, yet they are to young to retire. Has nothing to do with buying crap you cannot afford.
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:10 PM
 
3,327 posts, read 3,793,414 times
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Originally Posted by andywire View Post
What position are you speaking of exactly? Sounds like these guys are between a rock and a hard place. Won't be easy to find another job at their age, yet they are to young to retire. Has nothing to do with buying crap you cannot afford.
I'm speaking of a position where by 40 or 50your late 40's or early 50's, one has built up enough liquidity to tell an employer who's screwing you to shove it.

They have certain lifestyles to support so they have to take the ****. Who's to blame?
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Old 01-23-2012, 12:00 AM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,335,019 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wawaweewa View Post
Ask yourself this then.

How did these workers in their 40's and 50's put themselves in such a position? Is it because they bought hat 2nd or 3rd car or that McMansion or that unlimited data plan plus the full on Cable TV package at home or buy their kids unlimited data plans and cars?

No wage is going to be sufficient when one is always spending more than he is earning. It seems that many Americans do just that.
From David Copperfield . . . then, as now.

“My other piece of advice Copperfield, you know. Annual income 20 pounds, annual expenditure 19, nineteen and 6; result happiness. Annual income 20 pounds, annual expenditure 20 pounds ought and six, result misery"
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Old 01-23-2012, 12:05 AM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,335,019 times
Reputation: 4478
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincolnian View Post
Not always easy to do. I used to work for a big corporation where there was a constant threat of layoffs and when people were laid off they walked them right through the office as a reminder. That was 15 years ago. A few of my friends are still there. The pressure is even greater today. Many work 6 days a week, 10 hours a day and give back unused vacation days. It is not even the case that they are busy but they are expected to be there to show that they are loyal employees.

The competitor to this company is even more ruthless. A friend of mine works for this company. He typically works a minimum of 60 hours a week. They instituted a health care policy a few years ago that forces employees on to a spouse's plan if they have one. Ironically, this company has a health insurance division yet shirks its responsibility to its own employees. It has record cash on its books and received bailout money.

Many of these jobs are highly specialized and the skills are not easily transferable into another job in another field especially for workers in their late 40s and 50s.
Sure. I have even had morons -- who I am trying to help out -- I suppose THAT part is my stupidity -- tell me that since I was working under a salary for them, that I am then obliged to work "unlimited" hours.

I explain in very clear terms that they need to F themselves -- because they are not going to F me.

Anyone who relies on "Health Insurance" (how can we use such a term? -- my gawd, Americans have become so stupid) from an employer is set up for a double F.
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Old 01-23-2012, 12:34 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
26,975 posts, read 45,048,785 times
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Do you think the 40 hour work week is a thing of the past? Yip, for all but the Fed / Gov agency workers.

Quote:
Strange question. Just look around do you see many folks with a permanent job working less than 40 hours? Nope, people with permanent jobs work way more not less than 40 hours as automation, outsourcing and wealth concentration progresses.
60 hrs is pretty normal for salary people with significant responsibilities. I have always worked 60-80 hrs / week (considerably more while at Dairy Farm Boarding School) During my 'hourly' career periods as a very highly paid toolmaker, I averaged 37% Overtime, even tho we tried to significantly keep OT to a minimum. During my stints in engineering / international development the norm was 60-70 hrs/ week + commuting 19 hrs one way on an airplane (while 'not being paid' of course). We LOVED Saturdays, as we only had to work 1/2 day on Saturday (just 12 hrs )


Having been laid off after 32 yrs, yet 6 months before retirement eligibility, I now need to work just to get healthcare for a sick partner. I am back to working hourly, and just 1/2 days (12 hrs) 2pm - 2AM M-Sat and 6-12 hrs on Sunday, so.... 80 - 84 hrs / week, but at least 40+hrs/wk of that is OTwages, and quite good for the current market.

I hope to NEVER work another salary position. (even tho educated with advanced degrees). The 'new-normal' is definitely not 40 hrs / week, and certainly not less than 40 / wk.

Automation is not really too new... Just imagine our joy when we went from milking cows by hand to having automatic milking machines... circa 1960 (we were not early adopters...). Then in the early 1970's I was converting tape controlled metal working machines to Computer controlled (working with 8K of RAM) When we could do called sub-routines we were fat cats, as we could program a quadrant and tell the computer to MIRROR the Data Yippee ! (Much faster than punching a paper tape).. Then in early 1980's we went to CAD / CAM and I never saw another Blueprint!!! ( that was 30+ yrs ago...) 1990's brought auto "machine tool paths" and more robots (incremental improvement, nothing significant except improving repetitive quality). 1990's also brought stereolithography (building models from CAD data). That was pretty helpful, but again, not a paradigm shift, only incremental.

Recently, the MOST significant changes are internet enhanced marketing (This is killing my commercial investment properties AND JOBS / BUSINESSES / LOCAL ECONOMIES).

Less than 40 hrs may become a new norm for service workers (order takers / counter help at McDonalds / Checkout clerks / bank tellers). BUT it will be in the form of unemployment checks, just like my plumbers, roofers, custodians, brick masons, electricians, tile setters, truckers, advertisers, architects, city tax collectors, business owners, employees, realtors, and bank managers who USED to be essential to running a brick and mortar storefront.

Things change... do your homework, be flexible, learn to get by on less... (I've been driving a $35 car that gets 50mpg on FREE fryer grease for over 30 yrs...) Good Luck,,, I hope you don't need healthcare.
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