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Old 03-14-2012, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
17,971 posts, read 16,450,385 times
Reputation: 17850

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Management was/is/will be the highest paid wage job. The laws of pecking order are immutable, top monkey gets the best bamboo sprouts and females, lower ranking monkeys get scraps, the actual contributions, skills, education, work are irrelevant. It's all about pecking order. You people who mentioned machinists and electricians are simply ridiculous. Those are lower ranking jobs, filled by low ranking monkeys, chunky broads are the kind of girls those jobs would get ya.

Here is a very rough sketch of the pecking order.

Owning leisure class #1
Management caste #2
Over-educated (and currently in demand) Grunts #3
Office grunts #4
Worker's aristocracy #5
Working & Serving Classes #6
Low wage class #7
Excess & permanently discarded labor #8
Management is a broad term. If you were to say HR management will be the highest paid, you would be rewarded with an array of laughter. And how much do you think the typical office manager actually pulls a year? For example, at a typical doctors office or something? Business admin majors are a dime a dozen. Turns out a lot of people wanna be the boss. Many of those "over-educated" grunts are not to easy to find. Generally speaking, the more rare something is, the more you gotta pay.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:32 AM
 
5,931 posts, read 5,609,323 times
Reputation: 6897
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCUBS1 View Post
The way to make real money is to own something of value... real estate, companies, stock... rather than having a "job" working for someone else. As you say, to be part of the "owning leisure class." This has always been my goal. But the post did ask about "jobs" (not wealth accumulation) so the answers will relate to middle class jobs. Though sometimes these jobs (e.g. over-educated grunts who start companies) can serve as stepping stones for access to the owning leisure class.
Over-educated grunts rarely join managerial caste, if lucky they may generate some income streams by investing, but normally it's not enough to launch them to full fledged leisure class status. Grunts have the status Pyramid and pecking orders of their own. Only top specialized grunts generate respectable incomes, low ranking grunts is not any better than working class (and some join working class after being discarded).

The point is, for whatever reason, the perch of a Grunt is the terminal destination, it's not a stepping stone to managerial or leisure class. Grunts are seriously discriminated against by managerial caste and more frequently than not they lack schmoozing graces, people & pyramid skills to get and hold on to managerial spots. If you have what it takes to join managerial caste, it's very, very, very stupid to follow the path of a grunt. The ratio of benefits/costs is abysmally low and, even if you are "successful" (chances are very slim), you'll hit the wall.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Woodinville
3,185 posts, read 4,324,792 times
Reputation: 6282
Quote:
Originally Posted by eskercurve View Post
Anyway, my predictions for growth:

Skilled manufacturing (CNC machining, crane operators, people who fix the robots who do the assembly work, etc)
Engineering (specifically aerospace, mechanical, nano-tech, etc)
Man/machine interfaces (cybernetics and hardware/wetware interfaces)
software engineering (artificial intelligence and automated decision-making neural networks are the future)

Decline:

Low skilled work (like textiles, toys, basically anything that requires less than a high school diploma)
Business related majors, like MBA's, as they've become ubiquitous and increasingly supplanted by automation
University professorships - the education cost bubble has to pop eventually and low cost city colleges and foreign universities are becoming more attractive
Eskercurve is right on the money. When it comes to engineering and skilled manufacturing, I think we'll be seeing large increases in wages in the next decade or two. Both of these fields are dominated by the old and the young. There's few middle-aged workers because they all went and got accounting/MBA/Business degrees while companies were busy offshoring. Now companies have realized that the offshoring of technical work is terrible for their products (due to HUGE quality problems from "cheap" engineering/manufacturing) and they're starting to bring these jobs back. Young people are starting to catch on, but there's still a huge hole that will need to be filled once the boomers start retiring en masse. When the economy starts a full-blown recovery these highly skilled or highly educated technical jobs are going to skyrocket.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Chicagoland
5,724 posts, read 9,223,350 times
Reputation: 6923
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Over-educated grunts rarely join managerial caste, if lucky they may generate some income streams by investing, but normally it's not enough to launch them to full fledged leisure class status. Grunts have the status Pyramid and pecking orders of their own. Only top specialized grunts generate respectable incomes, low ranking grunts is not any better than working class (and some join working class after being discarded).

The point is, for whatever reason, the perch of a Grunt is the terminal destination, it's not a stepping stone to managerial or leisure class. Grunts are seriously discriminated against by managerial caste and more frequently than not they lack schmoozing graces, people & pyramid skills to get and hold on to managerial spots. If you have what it takes to join managerial caste, it's very, very, very stupid to follow the path of a grunt. The ratio of benefits/costs is abysmally low and, even if you are "successful" (chances are very slim), you'll hit the wall.
I was referring to the over-educated grunts (e.g. lawyers starting their own practices, Dr.'s starting plastic surgery clinics, engineers starting tech start-ups) who jump to the owning-leisure class. Examples of this are all around me.
I was not referring to over-educated grunts moving into mid-management at someone else's company.

For me, the choice was simple. Own your own business while buying investment real estate along the way. For me, the answer was not to work for someone else trying to climb the corporate ladder for a slim chance at "managerial caste." Though others prefer this path as they perceive it has less risk.

If grunts have marketable skills/trades along with "schmoozing graces & people skills," one potential way out of perpetual, long-term "grunt hood" is to start their own business.

With this economy, many outplaced "grunts" have been forced into hustling their own business, which will be a good thing in the long-term IMO.

Last edited by GoCUBS1; 03-14-2012 at 10:54 AM..
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:58 AM
 
5,931 posts, read 5,609,323 times
Reputation: 6897
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Management is a broad term. If you were to say HR management will be the highest paid, you would be rewarded with an array of laughter. And how much do you think the typical office manager actually pulls a year? For example, at a typical doctors office or something? Business admin majors are a dime a dozen. Turns out a lot of people wanna be the boss. Many of those "over-educated" grunts are not to easy to find. Generally speaking, the more rare something is, the more you gotta pay.

Sure, every "brick" of a master pyramid has a pyramid of its own. There is a managerial pyramid. I assure you that it much better to be the lowest brick in the managerial pyramid than to be the top dog of the working class pyramid. And it's not only about money. Status, health, sense of well being & longevity are abysmally low for working class types. Machinists are well known for kicking the bucket early. Besides, I would not mix managerial caste and office grunts, sometimes distinction is hard to make, but those are two distinct paths.

Pyramid of "over educated grunts" is especially sad pyramid to behold. Invisible hand wastes the best brains of the human race in order to run a sweat shop like operation and save a buck. If you are in the lower 50% percentile of the R&D grunt pyramid, that's the saddest place to be, endless mindless routine, 24/7 work, + abysmally low wages and close to zero chances to move up, 100% chances to be used up and discarded so the new crop of eager grunts could be worked 24/7. That's what powers human "innovations".
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:16 PM
 
8,265 posts, read 11,196,577 times
Reputation: 4788
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Management is a broad term. If you were to say HR management will be the highest paid, you would be rewarded with an array of laughter.
I agree.

I believe all the software devs where I work make over 80k, and the average is probably about six figures. I don't have access to a spreadsheet of everyone's salary but I'd wager the majority of middle managers here make much less than the developers.

Manager of a customer service phone bank, receiving section of the warehouse, or HR just isn't a 100k job in a company this size.
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Old 03-14-2012, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia Area
1,720 posts, read 1,166,302 times
Reputation: 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfunkle524 View Post
Eskercurve is right on the money. When it comes to engineering and skilled manufacturing, I think we'll be seeing large increases in wages in the next decade or two. Both of these fields are dominated by the old and the young. There's few middle-aged workers because they all went and got accounting/MBA/Business degrees while companies were busy offshoring. Now companies have realized that the offshoring of technical work is terrible for their products (due to HUGE quality problems from "cheap" engineering/manufacturing) and they're starting to bring these jobs back. Young people are starting to catch on, but there's still a huge hole that will need to be filled once the boomers start retiring en masse. When the economy starts a full-blown recovery these highly skilled or highly educated technical jobs are going to skyrocket.
I wouldn't hold your breath man.
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:09 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
26,931 posts, read 45,013,939 times
Reputation: 31068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfunkle524 View Post
Eskercurve is right on the money. When it comes to engineering and skilled manufacturing, I think we'll be seeing large increases in wages in the next decade or two. .... When the economy starts a full-blown recovery these highly skilled or highly educated technical jobs are going to skyrocket.
OK, I'll be ready to restart my career of 35 yrs ago to get the BIG BUCKs (CNC / Toolmaker / Engineer).
I'm glad I 'retired' pre-50, so I can rest up for the real work. (and I will be even MORE ready for healthcare coverage) Now, if I can just survive till the full-blown recovery.

BTW, retiring pre-50 was not gleaned from wages of ANY of my previous employs. One needs to be working outside the 'Cube' to get a taste freedom. (tho a Government position that included a pension would have been smart thinking... but it may have stymied my intellectual progress. )
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:56 PM
 
Location: Up North
3,429 posts, read 8,038,453 times
Reputation: 3104
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Many of these people come here for the subsidies. That's money out of our pockets into them. If I want to donate to charity, which I do, I will decide who gets it. As long as they drop their anchor here, the government will pick up the tab while they work an $8/hr job. I live in a "sanctuary state". The COL is high, yet they line up for $8/hr jobs, mostly supplied by the temp agencies. This is the biggest scam running right under the noses of the American people. And apartments here rent for prices many Americans cannot afford to pay. No problem for the illegals, when they fit 3 families in one apartment.

Okay, well about 1/3 of my family came here without documentation in the '80s and none of us have ever lived off or had subsidies even here in Massachusetts where they are readily available. They are legal via amnesty. In my experience with my own large family and network, most of them simply are not aware of things like "free health care for children" until they are informed by someone else after relocation. These things are simply too good to be true or too different from what they are used to. Most of my family came here to engage in economic activity and the rest came to escape small-town life of back "home". Starting out in poverty, now some own businesses and others are college educated professionals. Their children all have that "2nd generation" motivation and have worked hard and contributed to businesses and government. Not one of my Hispanic family member have even been involved in crime or any other media-created stereotypes.

The rest of my family either was sponsored by employers or had to wait over 7 years to get a visa. My aunt that waited over 7 years had lived here legally in the past, but had to go through this process all over again.


And Mexico is not nearly as bad a place to live as many seem to think. There are plenty of jobs there, and a lot more folks who speak Spanish. Most recognize that Mexico has improved greatly over the years economically, and many talk of going back one day. The social safety nets are one of the strongest motivators to stay here for many though. One problem that drives many illegals here... It's very difficult to get a job with a criminal record. Makes ya sleep sound at night, doesn't it?

What are your sources, travel brochures? I have a cousin-in-law who is Mexican, and he is macho and all that and even he doesn't feel safe anymore in Guadalahara. He came here as a factory worker, later became a bartender, and now he owns a successful restaurant. How does this harm you? Over the years it has gotten much worse and while there are some wealthy Mexicans in Mexico, most are living in poverty (there is NO middle class). Drug lords rule over pretty much everything, and that is due to the high demand for drugs in North America.

I asked one guy why he came here. Said people were returning to his country with money, nice cars, nice things... He could live comfortably in his country, but he could afford luxuries things. He wanted to get his. Only thing is, a lot of those opportunities for illegal immigrants are disappearing. There are more American's than ever willing to work for peanuts, driving many migrants out of the labor force. He has kids though, and can count on a food card, free health care, and many more things his country doesn't offer. Seems as though the labor market has made quite an adjustment over the past 5 years.

What intrigues me is that America has a history or discriminating against Mexicans and not allowing to them to live here in times of tough economy.
During the Great Depression, The Mexican Repatriation Act had police doing raids in people's homes and deported between 500,000-1,000,000 Mexican Americans (people that were BORN here and were citizens).

Back then they were also seen as taking away American jobs and since mestizos look different than Europeans, they are easier to single out. Whats even more astonishing is majority of history text books used in American schools don't even mention this injustice.

I'm not even Mexican and this bothers me.
my response in blue
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Old 03-15-2012, 06:53 PM
 
616 posts, read 1,054,175 times
Reputation: 709
Growth:

Politicians
Wall Street Bankers/Hedge Fund Managers
Drug dealers

Decline:

Everything else.
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