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Old 06-06-2012, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
18,196 posts, read 16,637,809 times
Reputation: 18178

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalCroozer View Post
The American economy is never coming back. Way too many overqualified, underqualified people graduating from colleges. And colleges are pumping thousands of graduates out every semester. EVERY YEAR MILLIONS graduate college. LMAO! Do the f'ing math you idiots! There aren't even enough jobs for the millions that have been laid off in the last few years. America is becoming a third world country as the middle class is deboned and plundered and pillaged. There will be the haves and the have nots. And a small segment of the population working like dogs pretending one day they will make it into the "haves" country club.
Merely pumping out college grads won't do a thing. What they lack is practical, hands on experience in their chosen professions. A few hours in the lab or doing simulations is simply not going to cut it. It takes 8 hours a day, for a years for one to really hone in their skills. I still see engineers coming out of college who can not efficiently manipulate AutoCad. Sorry, no body is going to hire you. They would be more likely to hire someone cheap, and have train them to be a Cad operator.

Another problem with college is it doesn't train students to think and absorb things on their feet, or think outside the box. They must be able to interpret directions the first time, and generate results. If problems arise, they must utilize previous experience and their brain to create a solution. Nobody is going to let you take the book home for a few days and prepare for the task at hand. You must be quick and timely. Students are used to structured learning and spoon feeding. That's just not the way it is in the real world. Hence, unless an employer is committed to hiring a young person and molding them into a productive professional over the course of months, possibly years, they simply will not be given the chance. No problem, the colleges will keep pumping out fresh grads, kids will continue to go back to school to pursue more education, and the labor market will absorb them at a snail's pace. Many are caught in limbo these days, racking up unnecessary debt on our dime. Many students will not be counted in the labor pool, so we will be none the wiser. Prosperity
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Old 06-06-2012, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Woodinville
3,185 posts, read 4,348,125 times
Reputation: 6282
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Merely pumping out college grads won't do a thing. What they lack is practical, hands on experience in their chosen professions. A few hours in the lab or doing simulations is simply not going to cut it. It takes 8 hours a day, for a years for one to really hone in their skills. I still see engineers coming out of college who can not efficiently manipulate AutoCad. Sorry, no body is going to hire you. They would be more likely to hire someone cheap, and have train them to be a Cad operator.

Another problem with college is it doesn't train students to think and absorb things on their feet, or think outside the box. They must be able to interpret directions the first time, and generate results. If problems arise, they must utilize previous experience and their brain to create a solution. Nobody is going to let you take the book home for a few days and prepare for the task at hand. You must be quick and timely. Students are used to structured learning and spoon feeding. That's just not the way it is in the real world. Hence, unless an employer is committed to hiring a young person and molding them into a productive professional over the course of months, possibly years, they simply will not be given the chance. No problem, the colleges will keep pumping out fresh grads, kids will continue to go back to school to pursue more education, and the labor market will absorb them at a snail's pace. Many are caught in limbo these days, racking up unnecessary debt on our dime. Many students will not be counted in the labor pool, so we will be none the wiser. Prosperity
Yes we are all aware you hate college graduates and think they're idiots because you're an engineer without a college degree (if I'm remembering correctly). However, a lot of your rants are untrue of the many high-quality students that engineering programs churn out that get snatched up rather quickly. I know countless engineers that know their way around the machine shop and even worked for a company where the engineers machined the vast majority of their own parts. I also know plenty of engineers who had internships and other such valuable experiences that really helped them hit the ground running once they entered the workforce as a professional. Many of the young guys are extremely proficient in CAD systems due to how much focus is placed on it in school.

The students that are used to being "spoon-fed" information come from a low quality program because they would have failed out of a mid-tier engineering school. The most important thing taught in engineering school these days is absorbing info and thinking dynamically on the fly. Some do it better than others, but those who can't grasp it don't make it very far.

Creativity does tend to get stifled, I'll give you that one. However, that is highly dependent on the electives the student took. Some of the most difficult technical electives are the ones that require a great degree of creativity to solve problems. Failing to think "outside of the box" means failing the class.

I'll never claim that all engineering graduates are geniuses, but your bashing of them got old a long time ago.
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Old 06-06-2012, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
18,196 posts, read 16,637,809 times
Reputation: 18178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfunkle524 View Post
Yes we are all aware you hate college graduates and think they're idiots because you're an engineer without a college degree (if I'm remembering correctly). However, a lot of your rants are untrue of the many high-quality students that engineering programs churn out that get snatched up rather quickly. I know countless engineers that know their way around the machine shop and even worked for a company where the engineers machined the vast majority of their own parts. I also know plenty of engineers who had internships and other such valuable experiences that really helped them hit the ground running once they entered the workforce as a professional. Many of the young guys are extremely proficient in CAD systems due to how much focus is placed on it in school.

The students that are used to being "spoon-fed" information come from a low quality program because they would have failed out of a mid-tier engineering school. The most important thing taught in engineering school these days is absorbing info and thinking dynamically on the fly. Some do it better than others, but those who can't grasp it don't make it very far.

Creativity does tend to get stifled, I'll give you that one. However, that is highly dependent on the electives the student took. Some of the most difficult technical electives are the ones that require a great degree of creativity to solve problems. Failing to think "outside of the box" means failing the class.

I'll never claim that all engineering graduates are geniuses, but your bashing of them got old a long time ago.
I wasn't speaking about the high end programs. Those are standbys today, as they have been for many generations. THOSE are where we get our valued engineers of tomorrow. I have worked with guys from colleges such as Duke, Purdue, cream of the crop programs. Florida has one of the country's top cutting tool technology programs, and that is an invaluable asset to the future viability of manufacturing in this country. The problem lies with the bottom tier programs, and the rate at which they are pumping out graduates. Yes, you can get an engineering degree from a bottom of the barrel school. It ain't the same thing. And the students wonder why they don't have the ability to perform the duties of the job. At the same time, while these school are pumping out grads left and right, most employers I speak with claim there is a huge shortage of actual engineering talent. They want the best, not the rest.

And I am not an engineer. I make parts start to finish, and determine which is the most efficient methods to manufacture parts per print. Some guys in my position would like to call themselves engineers, and that is fine, but that is not me. Programing machines never made anyone an engineer, it made them a programmer, just like cranking handles was not necessarily the job of an engineer. I do think it is knowledge they must possess to efficiently and effectively perform the duties of the job. The two should go hand in hand. It saddens me to see engineering programs getting rid of hands on shop based classes because of the dangers, and previous injuries/deaths/potential lawsuits. This WILL have a negative impact on the quality of engineering grads being turned out.

There is nothing wrong with college. There is something wrong with subpar programs churning out subpar talent the cannot effectively make the transition from classroom to workplace. Might I mention, paying a pretty penny for it too. And what form of debt just surpassed credit card debt???
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Woodinville
3,185 posts, read 4,348,125 times
Reputation: 6282
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Yes, you can get an engineering degree from a bottom of the barrel school. It ain't the same thing.
This I can definitely agree on. Sorry I was mistaken on your background. I would like to add that there are a whole lot of champions coming out of state schools. I think there are more high and mid-tier programs than anything else. There are a whole lot of public schools out there with outstanding engineering programs. The frustrating degrees you tend to describe sound more like associate degrees in engineering technology or some nonsense like that.

And yes, many curricula are shying away from time in the shop. One of my mechanical engineering buddies never even entered the machine shop but could design the heck out of nanosystems. He would have no business working for a company that designs industrial tooling, nor would anyone who's afraid of machines powerful enough to cut steel. The breadth of mechanical engineer as a degree can be a curse for anyone unprepared to use their education in real-world applications (hiding behind their CAD models for example).

I became a mechanical engineer because I liked to get in there and get stuff done. If I get to build it myself then all the better. I believe this is what separates the truly successful engineers from the unsuccessful.
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
18,196 posts, read 16,637,809 times
Reputation: 18178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfunkle524 View Post
This I can definitely agree on. Sorry I was mistaken on your background. I would like to add that there are a whole lot of champions coming out of state schools. I think there are more high and mid-tier programs than anything else. There are a whole lot of public schools out there with outstanding engineering programs. The frustrating degrees you tend to describe sound more like associate degrees in engineering technology or some nonsense like that.

And yes, many curricula are shying away from time in the shop. One of my mechanical engineering buddies never even entered the machine shop but could design the heck out of nanosystems. He would have no business working for a company that designs industrial tooling, nor would anyone who's afraid of machines powerful enough to cut steel. The breadth of mechanical engineer as a degree can be a curse for anyone unprepared to use their education in real-world applications (hiding behind their CAD models for example).

I became a mechanical engineer because I liked to get in there and get stuff done. If I get to build it myself then all the better. I believe this is what separates the truly successful engineers from the unsuccessful.
From a very basic dollar perspective, an engineer should have a good understanding of the most efficient, practical (and cheapest) methods which can be employed to produce the design they seek. Why spend $100 when you could spend $50, and still accomplish the goal of the design? Why require a tighter tolerance on a dimension than necessary? I'm just gonna charge you more for it. From a business sense, an engineer with an appreciation for the practical side (and perhaps getting a bit dirty) are the most sought after in any place I've ever worked. The Duke and Purdue guys I worked with were required to spend time on machines making parts. Not because the company was going to make money off them. Because they wanted them to gain some practical insight.

One of the best engineers I ever worked with would spend 1/2 the day in the office. The other half was spent on the floor, sweating his butt off in the 90 degree heat, hunched over machines. There wasn't any job he couldn't get running. Started out cutting CAM tracers in his father's shop at age 13. Those kinds of engineers are rare, and can name there price. I wish he wasn't so busy during the workday, I could have learned a ton more from him.

Personally, I have little vested interest in production any longer. It's dominated by margins, risk vs reward matrix, algorithms, tool life equations, time vs money... The heart and soul of actually making stuff has been widdled away, along with the actual craftsmanship. The way I view it... If your bucket is fuller at the end of the day, you're doing fine. I don't think we need any more 6 sigma $300/hr consultants running around. Not every equation can prove true in every type of setting, or type of work.
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Old 06-12-2012, 12:44 PM
 
2,409 posts, read 2,798,706 times
Reputation: 2031
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Merely pumping out college grads won't do a thing. What they lack is practical, hands on experience in their chosen professions. A few hours in the lab or doing simulations is simply not going to cut it. It takes 8 hours a day, for a years for one to really hone in their skills. I still see engineers coming out of college who can not efficiently manipulate AutoCad. Sorry, no body is going to hire you. They would be more likely to hire someone cheap, and have train them to be a Cad operator.

Another problem with college is it doesn't train students to think and absorb things on their feet, or think outside the box. They must be able to interpret directions the first time, and generate results. If problems arise, they must utilize previous experience and their brain to create a solution. Nobody is going to let you take the book home for a few days and prepare for the task at hand. You must be quick and timely. Students are used to structured learning and spoon feeding. That's just not the way it is in the real world. Hence, unless an employer is committed to hiring a young person and molding them into a productive professional over the course of months, possibly years, they simply will not be given the chance. No problem, the colleges will keep pumping out fresh grads, kids will continue to go back to school to pursue more education, and the labor market will absorb them at a snail's pace. Many are caught in limbo these days, racking up unnecessary debt on our dime. Many students will not be counted in the labor pool, so we will be none the wiser. Prosperity
Yep! But if it wasn't for all those fledgeling students the universities and colleges wouldn't be making mllions and all those tenured professors wouldn't be able to drive off in their Audi TT's while their TA's do all the actual "professing". College and the American educational system from K-12 on up to college is one big racket. Our country doesn't care about educating kids all we/they care about is making money off of each other and sadly our future generations. This is why the Chinese will dominate the next century. The people over there actually care about China and Chinese superiority. America has turned into one big competition. Instead of helping each other and lifting all of us up we just try to take advantage of each other........it's all "business".
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Old 07-11-2012, 02:35 AM
 
Location: Fairfax County, VA
3,719 posts, read 5,100,500 times
Reputation: 1467
Public Administration and Urban/Regional/City Planning.
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Old 07-14-2012, 06:36 PM
 
1,389 posts, read 1,195,692 times
Reputation: 286
The future is bright for accounting.
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Old 07-14-2012, 08:27 PM
 
Location: IN
22,298 posts, read 38,920,170 times
Reputation: 14872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmund_Burke View Post
The future is bright for accounting.
Maybe I need to go back to school and get a degree in accounting. I'm a good number person, but at least one doesn't need Calculus skills.
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Old 07-14-2012, 08:52 PM
 
1,389 posts, read 1,195,692 times
Reputation: 286
CPA or/and cma is ideal.
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