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Old 06-18-2012, 08:48 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,624,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaker281 View Post
Enlighten us what you do to "keep this countries head above water" that is so extraordinary? Did I hurt your feelings, by stating that education has progressed over the years from slide rules and beating children's knuckles with rulers?
Education has digressed, not progressed. The US holds a shameful 47th place in science and math scores worldwide. Most students today could not master a slide rule; much less compete with workers on a global scale. Most classrooms today are a disorganized mess of kids talking on cell phones, texting, and doing everything except their studies. A little knuckle raping would do most of them a world of good. Before you can teach them, you have to get their attention.
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:15 PM
 
Location: western East Roman Empire
8,023 posts, read 11,805,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
A little knuckle-rapping would do most of them a world of good. Before you can teach them, you have to get their attention.
I had a fat priest teach me algebra in high school. I wasn't very good at it and earned mediocre grades. One time he punched me in the head, but he did it with love, and I loved him for it. Later on, I became pretty good at probability and statistics, a skill which has served me for life.

And I still love him for punching me in the head.

I have no respect for those idiots today who teach kids that it's all candy canes and unicorns, because it isn't: the world raps knuckles and punches heads.

Good Luck!
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:19 PM
 
8,265 posts, read 11,193,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Education has digressed, not progressed. The US holds a shameful 47th place in science and math scores worldwide. Most students today could not master a slide rule; much less compete with workers on a global scale.
Not so sure about this, trends in standardized test scores don't seem to indicate any significant drop for this generation.







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Old 06-18-2012, 06:32 PM
 
3,335 posts, read 2,700,970 times
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So the skills are dropping. 6% in 5 yrs.

At that rate, by 2050 we should have some pretty stupid college grads. Right on schedule.
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
17,963 posts, read 16,439,263 times
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I would be very interested to see what the results were for averages BEFORE 1972... You know, when school teachers were apparently teaching scale rules and slapping JR's knuckles... And why wouldn't test scores go up? They practically gave the answers away when I was in high school in 2005. It's called job protection... Teach the stuff that counts, and directly reflects the good name of the institution. Why the heck do we allow schools to get away with STUDYING for the SAT, and outright grade inflation?
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Old 06-19-2012, 01:10 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
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Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
Not so sure about this, trends in standardized test scores don't seem to indicate any significant drop for this generation.







How about finding some charts that go back to the 50's and 60's when we were at the top of our competitiveness.
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Old 06-19-2012, 01:20 PM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,329,247 times
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Have you all not followed that the SAT / ACT scoring system has been re-set over the past?

You are no longer comparing real values on any of this.

And it would not matter, anyway -- as it is on the world scale that US sucks for Elementary and High School. Not in comparing US to US.

Problem is at a bit higher level. Consider GRE scores. Yunno, the numbers for Grad School Entrance Exams. It is the folks with Master level degrees that make most of the screwed up decisions for US -- that result in our crappy Elementary and High Schools.

Look at GRE scores and see who the dummies are -- it is Education and Business. That is the real problem in all this.

We have put the dummies in charge.
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Old 06-19-2012, 03:02 PM
 
8,265 posts, read 11,193,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
How about finding some charts that go back to the 50's and 60's when we were at the top of our competitiveness.
So when charts going back 40 years don't align with your claims about today's students you just demand we take it back farther? I'm thinking if that chart showed our test scores rising since 1950 you'd ask for 1930, but whatever I've got no idea what test scores were in the 50s, but I do know a far greater percentage of young men and women graduate from high school and collge.

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Old 06-19-2012, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
17,963 posts, read 16,439,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
So when charts going back 40 years don't align with your claims about today's students you just demand we take it back farther? I'm thinking if that chart showed our test scores rising since 1950 you'd ask for 1930, but whatever I've got no idea what test scores were in the 50s, but I do know a far greater percentage of young men and women graduate from high school and collge.
They go to college today because that is what they are told to do. Aside from that, generations ago, young people could walk out and get a job, and a decent one at that. If they were smart enough, they could climb the ladder, and even retire with a pension, or enough saved up to live happily ever after. Yes, such terrible times, I know. I don't think educational attainment is a very good measure of how smart the kids coming out of high school are compared to the past. What we should REALLY be asking is... Why aren't kids coming out of high school with the skills and traits required to begin a career? You know, reading, writing, mathematics, showing up on time, every day for work? Why aren't they being prepped on interview skills, job hunting skills, you know, practical skills that can feed you or a family one day? How about some vocational studies that can be used to begin a career after k-12? Ask any business owner about the quality of high school grads ON AVERAGE. You'll get an earful I'm sure, along with a wake up call.

And we all know how dumbed down tier 3 an below colleges are, thus allowing those of modest intellect a chance to be tallied in your graph, along with quite a debt burden. Many unfortunately are going to require a hike in minimum wage if they are ever going to pay that off.

Like many of us have stated... We would really love to see what standardized tests scores looked like pre 1970, and before students didn't actually STUDY for the stupid test. Yup, if we can't make em smart enough, we'll just boost the numbers by giving them the answers

Argue all you want. I lived it. K-12 is an utter joke. The worst performing students were focused on the most when it came time for standardized testing prep. Homeschool your kids, or send them to private school if you can afford it, but throwing them into this failure of a government meat processor/daycare isn't going to do much in the way of preparing them for the real world.

And no one is being mean by suggesting that kids are coming out of HS ill prepared. We are being critical. We are being critical of an educational system that simply is failing the single greatest form of infrastructure a nation has to offer... It's future.
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:34 PM
 
8,265 posts, read 11,193,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
I don't think educational attainment is a very good measure of how smart the kids coming out of high school are compared to the past. What we should REALLY be asking is... Why aren't kids coming out of high school with the skills and traits required to begin a career?
Given a lack of many other measures that compare the 1950s to today what do you suggest? The post I was replying to implied Americans have poorer skills in subjects such as math, would you really argue that more people from a decade where less than half of young men and women graduated from high school have a stronger core academic skill set?

Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Ask any business owner about the quality of high school grads ON AVERAGE. You'll get an earful I'm sure, along with a wake up call.
You are naive if you believe "these kids today" is a new phenomenon. Are you a relatively young man Andy? You must be to think that parents/teachers/employers rolling their eyes at the young generation is a wake up call to anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Argue all you want. I lived it. K-12 is an utter joke.
Welcome to the world of anecdotal evidence, which is pretty ironic coming one page after you dismissed another person's post that had a positive experience regarding young people and education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
And no one is being mean by suggesting that kids are coming out of HS ill prepared. We are being critical.
It has nothing to do with being mean, what on earth are you talking about? I'm in this discussion because I've yet to see any evidence that the younger generation is any less capable in core academic subjects than previous generations. All I've seen is people thinking that asking an employer or saying their high school sucked are valid measures of anything.
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