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Old 06-08-2012, 10:33 PM
 
5,410 posts, read 10,353,149 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE View Post

Just about everything that you are advocating has been tried since Obama became President. He has been trying to buy our way out of the recession. You do realize that 99 weeks of unemployment is not normal? Putting all that money out there to stimulate the economy has done little to stimulate the economy.
Those were low key Collapse Arrest and Full Blown Depression Prevention moves -- Stimulus was the acceptable marketing term.

That things did not totally collapse to Post Soviet Russia levels is a HUGE measure of success.
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Old 06-09-2012, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
18,099 posts, read 16,568,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Does not have to work like that. Automation can crank out your ever so dear Coffee Maker right here for less than $20 full retail, and do so without global pollution, and no fuel burnt shipping it from China.
Gee, cause it's just that simple... Pie in the sky. You gonna build and design the robots, molds, fixtures, electronics, hydrolcs and pneumatics to make a whopping $20 coffee maker? Oh, and that's $20 retail. More like $13 per unit going to the manufacturer tops. Forget about it. Any American business would have to have that thing selling for $50 bucks bare minimum. That would be a stretch even.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
And since the work is highly automated, the related jobs pay well, and folks can work shorter work week hours, allowing more people to be employed with a higher quality of life for all.
Goodness, we are full of dreams tonight... Ever see those glorious space age automated jobs? Yea, they are the equivalent of blue collar burger flipping jobs, except the guys building the machines, the guys programing them, and maybe a $15/hr maintenance guy. Those machine operators might lucky to see anything over $10/hr, and they better know some Spanish. Haha, and shorter workweeks? Are you sure you want to go there? Try 60 hours a week minimum, and if you don't like it, we'll get someone else. And for what they will pay you, you will need all the OT you can get to survive. If you think it's so great, go get you one of those fancy robot operator jobs, starting at the same thing 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, for the grand wage of $10/hr, cause that's all those robotics operators are worth to anyone. They are blue collar burger flippers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
But that will take a tariff -- to force "We Sell Out For Less" Wal-Mart to source here.
They put tariffs on Chinese solar panels... After all that stimulus money was invested in our solar panel industry, and production was moved outside the country in short order. A little late in the game on that one. Just like the idea of more tariffs today, way too late in the game. All that manufacturing infrastructure is somewhere else now. And guess what? Your younger generation has not been training for these careers cause, wait for it... The jobs weren't there! For most of the skilled labor jobs, a young person needs years of training and experience and that ain't cheap. See if Wallstreet would swallow that pill. Nope, more profitable to get the work done somewhere else in the short term. Long term be damned. Once the remaining blue collar baby boomers retire, your heavy manufacturing base is finished. Years of hardship and NAFTA has led parents to steer their kids away from careers like these. Nobody seemed to shed a tear as this country shed countless decent paying jobs. What's that, do I hear crickets? Nope, just the sound of an empty vocational manufacturing technology class. Nobody signed up this year, just like the year before, and the year before.

And yes, the Chinese are eating your lunch and laughing in your face at how stupid your elected officials really are. Anyone stop to think why the Chinese were so motivated to acquire all that manufacturing muscle??? Umm hello, why were we called the sleeping giant in WW2? Control the production, and you can control the world. And they have plenty more people than we do to go driving around in those tanks and such.

And bring back jobs here? Do you realize how many slave wage nations there are just itching to get some low skilled piece work like assembling coffee makers? You gonna sit and write tariffs for every one of them?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
mkay, let's go down your list . . . .

Turbine engines -- Korea and China

diesel engines -- Korea, China

automobiles -- China.

agricultural products -- Ok on that one. But that only employs 1 in 60 Americans, and with automation is heading towards 1 in 100. So you have 1 in 100 of US working. Keep going.

aerospace -- Heading overseas, except the core MIC -- and that is relying on an ever broker customer -- US.

earth movers -- Even that has to go where the business for all the rest is. Not here.

etc. -- etc., indeed.
Are you joking? You think we don't make these things in this country? If anything, some of this work goes elsewhere because the manufacturing infrastructure in this nation has downsized so much, the work has to get done somewhere else to get done at all. Manufactures dealing with this type of work have been swamped for 3+ years and have been turning down work left and right. The reason? Our heavy manufacturing base has all but vanished. Wild cyclical ups and downs reek havoc in an industry that requires extensive capital investment, while relying on dwindling profit margins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
And you are going to do ALL that without tariffs?

Pie-in-the-Sky-by-and-by.

Oh do tell and Preach On, brother man.
I would let the Chinese have the marti gras bead work. Don't wear em, don't want em, and certainly don't want to make the stupid things. If you think your country is going to pick itself up by competing for $20 coffee maker jobs, your dreaming. How about teaching your kids some math and giving them some tools and letting them do some real work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Only Anchor ahead for the middle is debt. A big heavy anchor of debt tied around their necks.
What about it? What the heck can anyone do about it at this point? Wages stagnate, the wants grow, and people learned the credit cards give instant gratification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
They are going to be getting a LOT dirty before this ride is over.
Good, they are getting kinda soft sitting on mommy and daddies couch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Was not liberals who came up with this mess. This is down flow of Wealth Without Work Reaganomics. Turns out ol' Dutch was an economic dumbass.

Not that were not plenty of liberals who went right along for the ride.
Nobody is arguing that the whole political circus was a key player in the demise of our once great nation. Did the people really stop to ask the questions that should have been asked? No, they were too busy eating big macs and watching the filth on TV. American culture has hit rock bottom right with the economy.
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
16,558 posts, read 22,031,919 times
Reputation: 8776
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Hmm, manufacture the goods people want to buy in this country? I can buy a coffee brewer for under $20 at Walgreen. Trust me, we ain't gonna manufacture a $20 coffee brewer in this country, even if the workers all made minimum wage. Keep dreaming. Yes, the economy will be marked by instability, consumer goods will continue to be made elsewhere, and millions of American's will continue to whine about it, while voting for the $20 coffee brewers. Endless cycle.

Instead, we should be focused on manufacturing things that can support healthy profit margins. Turbine engines, diesel engines, automobiles, agricultural products, aerospace, earth movers, etc. That can support a healthy economy, and a healthy middle class. Bring back heavy industry, and bring back the anchor for the middle class, and convince your kids it's A OK to get a little dirty for a living. And blast all the liberals into outer space just for good measure.
I gladly will, I just traded in two Korean cars for two Union Built Fords. It cost me a little extra but it's what I thought wass right for the country. I have never set foot in a WALMART and sometimes have to drive 60 miles to buy what I need rather than betray America. The easy way isn't always the right way
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Old 06-09-2012, 12:03 PM
 
48,508 posts, read 88,682,201 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Plan C: (as in I can C this would work)

1. Dump NAFTA and "Free" Trade (really the only Free in that is Tax-Free for the Corporations) and re-instate tariffs to balance trade.

2. Take US off Oil -- at least for Ground Transportation.

3. End the endless wars, and bring the troops home -- we will need them back working productively with all the new jobs that #1 and #2 above will create.

=========

Only reason we will not is the Transnational Corporations that profit from the unbalanced trade and losses for US are making Big Bank and have bribed the Congress and Presidential Candidates more than they are paid by US.

so #4 --

End all Political Bribes (contributions, cough, cough) reel the Banks and Corporations back in, and begin a Corporate Death Penalty (kill the Corporation) for any that get out of line.I thni if we look at reality while our natio has no governamnt energy polciy (its a plan) the oi and gas industry has moved ahead and oil and gas is our big trumph card in the econmy of the future.Its the cost factor that will make us more competitive. What we need is plannig less by polcial driven agnda and more by what will produce results. kin d of like people felll for that stimulsu keepig unemployemnt below 7% and prodcuig all thsoe jobs that were shovel rady.It was just more directed spendig to polical groups. Same with governamnt loans to slar. Anyone thinkig this should invest there monwy n government only.

btw, we do not need to borrow a dime or import anything to do this.
I suggest that the cost of infrastructure to take US off oil and the time span required will be greater than the number of years it will take until north america is no longer a crude importer.I suggest all we need to do is look at what governamnt in housing has doen i Fnnaie and freddie( we are still bailing them out continiously) and what was goal stated and result of stimulus spending. We have no energy policy and yet the oil and gas inductry has made possible what every presdient starting with Carter has promised .Bascially government is as always a consumer; not efficent and wasteful because its poltical driven in spending decisions .
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Old 06-09-2012, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Columbia, California
6,664 posts, read 27,962,474 times
Reputation: 5127
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Why not just end unemployment?
So, you want to end a program I have paid into for 35 years because you disagree with it?
This is not "free money", this is our money taken out of each weekly paycheck. A insurance if you like against being un-employed.

Ending unemployment is equal to ending social security. Take money out of a working man or woman's paycheck then give them the bird when it is time to receive the benefits they have long paid into.
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:11 PM
 
5,410 posts, read 10,353,149 times
Reputation: 4488
Let's start with the beginning on this . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
I suggest that the cost of infrastructure to take US off oil and the time span required will be greater than the number of years it will take until north america is no longer a crude importer.
When (if ever) do you think that will be?

Have you been reading those fluff pieces by the WSJ and Citi -- and maybe do not understand the difference between Crude Oil v. Refined Oil Products?

I am seeing some of that around different places.

Is that what you are thinking?
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:16 PM
 
706 posts, read 1,958,631 times
Reputation: 904
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferretkona View Post
So, you want to end a program I have paid into for 35 years because you disagree with it?
This is not "free money", this is our money taken out of each weekly paycheck. A insurance if you like against being un-employed.

Ending unemployment is equal to ending social security. Take money out of a working man or woman's paycheck then give them the bird when it is time to receive the benefits they have long paid into.
I think the OP meant "end the condition in which too many people are tragically unemployed", not "end the Unemployment Insurance Compensation Benefit Plan".

--

The OP has given us a couple or bold proposals, both of which fly in the face of the conventional wisdom of the blogosphere. So far, nobody has addressed nor critiqued either of them, and instead this thread has merely vortexed into just another P&OC arena of the same tired old flying mantras.

Last edited by CowanStern; 06-09-2012 at 06:37 PM..
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Texas
2,847 posts, read 2,133,634 times
Reputation: 1754
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
That is an illusory figure. That 24-million counts everybody who has ever worked or has ever wanted to work. Five million would be enough to reduce to zero the number of labor-force households in which there is no income. A job for all of your 24 million would raise the work force to over 155-million, which is an absurd expectation and would be unsustainable in any economy. It would raise our jobs numbers to 16% higher than they have EVER been. But go ahead and double my numbers, to ten million, and it would still be within a range of feasibility. But wouldn't 5-million be better than the nothing (or couple of thousand) we are getting now?

Every cent cashed on payday would still go into the economy, and would represent a demand for something to spend it on. and an order for those goods and services. Even if it passes through the hands of landlords or utilities.

We ARE letting the market take care of itself, and it is backing away and leaving (you say) 24 million jobless. Stop waiting for them to fix it, they are not going to, until they see a money flow out there to buy what they make and sell. The money exists. Let big business see it moving, and they will build a way to earn it.


For the month of May, the total labor force included 155,007,000 persons. If the U1 is at 8.2%, that means that there were 12,710,000 people out of work in May. Let's compare that to the U6 which was 14.8%. That would mean that there were really over 22,940,000 people out of work. The 'official' figure understates the 'actual' figure by over 10 million people.
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Phoenix,az
391 posts, read 749,952 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boompa View Post
Drafting them would opeen those jobs up for other unemployed and it would provide the draftees with educational assistance when they complete their service.
What? I don't think so..
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Old 06-09-2012, 08:19 PM
 
28,900 posts, read 49,222,298 times
Reputation: 46329
And, while we're at it, fix cancer and death.
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