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Old 07-06-2012, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Chicago
3,267 posts, read 5,739,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene83 View Post
US is the reason of the world economic depression
So the debt in Greece has nothing to do with it? China's over spending and housing market bubble have no nothing to do with it? How about Spains debt crisis?

I do not agree that it is solely our fault that the world economies are in a depression. The world is a global market and the US being a majority leader will affect other countries if it falters. The irresponsible practices used during our housing bubble have most certainly been used in other countries as well.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:09 PM
 
81 posts, read 105,373 times
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We're reaching the collapse of the mercantilist economic model that has been employed by countries across the world to grow their economy. America collapsed in '08 when consumers could no longer support an increasing debt load due to our trade deficits. Fed printing money and massive government spending have allowed for a shallow, but unsustainable bounce off the bottoms. With us no longer increasing our purchase of Chinese goods, China is struggling to growth. Their economic growth of the past decade is almost entirely tied to growing its trade surpluses with the U.S.

Europe faces different, but similar issues. Trade deficit countries have also levered up on debt similar to the U.S. Just as consumers were cut off from more debt in 2008, weaker European governments are being cut off from the markets. The E.U. and ECB are simply trying to keep the party going a little longer with their ridiculous off-balance sheet arrangements.

The sooner everyone realizes that we must have a true market based trading system, the better off we'll all be in the long run. Until then, we're in for a very bumpy ride.
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:10 PM
 
3,335 posts, read 2,714,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
The US unemployment numbers equal the Great Depression [talking real numbers, no tweaked and adjusted, smoke and mirror numbers, just the real numbers like from before we invented PR].

We have artificial supports in place to hold us up until we can try to fix things. But that assumes we realize our error and work to fix things.

Increasing debt load is not fixing anything.



Congress knows this.

The last Farm Bill had $78 Billion for food stamps, and food stamps are currently feeding 15% of our population.

The new Farm Bill has $700+ Billion for food stamps. Nearly 10X more, for nearly 10X more people to be on food stamps.
But wait 15% of the population times 10, does not make sense, as that means 150% of our population. It is their guesstimated margin of error, under the assumption that soon Food Stamps will be feeding the entire population of our country.

Food Stamps are the modern method of bread lines, and congress has just prepared the system for massive bread lines.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:


Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:13 PM
 
3,335 posts, read 2,714,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGuy2.5 View Post
So the debt in Greece has nothing to do with it? China's over spending and housing market bubble have no nothing to do with it? How about Spains debt crisis?

I do not agree that it is solely our fault that the world economies are in a depression. The world is a global market and the US being a majority leader will affect other countries if it falters. The irresponsible practices used during our housing bubble have most certainly been used in other countries as well.
The collapse is the fruit of greed, power, and pride.

The Banking Cartels have designed a collapse to consolidate and bring about their schemes.
A glimpse of the scheme will be shown in the Barclay's LIBOR collusion / conspiracy that criminally set interest rates in order to game the system to excess borrowing and bad loans.
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:48 AM
 
479 posts, read 770,142 times
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Within the next six months to two years, the Dow will again lose more than half it's value. Quantitative easing has not only created irrationally high prices in the commodities markets; but US Banks are highly vulnerable to the collapse of the bond markets.

Government policy did not address the core issues the first go around. Consumers have deleveraged during the interim, where the Government has leveraged to the extent that collectively we all have more debt than ever!

If interest rates are not raised soon, the boomerang effect of hyper-inflation and a collapsing dollar is going to create a great deal of social unrest.
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:23 PM
 
91 posts, read 109,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tegota View Post
Within the next six months to two years, the Dow will again lose more than half it's value. Quantitative easing has not only created irrationally high prices in the commodities markets; but US Banks are highly vulnerable to the collapse of the bond markets.

Government policy did not address the core issues the first go around. Consumers have deleveraged during the interim, where the Government has leveraged to the extent that collectively we all have more debt than ever!

If interest rates are not raised soon, the boomerang effect of hyper-inflation and a collapsing dollar is going to create a great deal of social unrest.
So what books have you been reading?
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:18 PM
 
5,416 posts, read 10,368,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tegota View Post
Within the next six months to two years, the Dow will again lose more than half it's value. Quantitative easing has not only created irrationally high prices in the commodities markets; but US Banks are highly vulnerable to the collapse of the bond markets.

Government policy did not address the core issues the first go around. Consumers have deleveraged during the interim, where the Government has leveraged to the extent that collectively we all have more debt than ever!

If interest rates are not raised soon, the boomerang effect of hyper-inflation and a collapsing dollar is going to create a great deal of social unrest.
It is interest on debt that is the cause of the problem . . . not a cure.

Look, I know that most Americans cannot do math above around a 5th grade level, but the concept of infinite growth, infinite return (the basis of interest), all comes in with exponential math. Not that advanced, but most folks do not get it. If you run any debt out into the future with interest on it, eventually interest eats everything. Only canceling method to that -- other than Zero Interest is inflation.

Inflation is a curb on Interest.

But it is does not cure the debt.

Easiest cure for the whole mess is currency issued without debt AND without interest.

But that would wipe the (fake) "need" for the banks, as well as making a world with no need for Wealth- Without-Work Bondholders.
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,661 posts, read 78,750,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Much of North America -- and most of what is now the US -- has been populated for thousands of years.

And it does not really take Buffalo skins, anymore.

A/C and Heat can run from renewables just fine.
But advanced industrialized populations have not been here for thousands of years.

How long will it take to get all those wonderful renewables up and running enough to meet anywhere near our current Heat/AC needs?

Of course, after a period of time, we will find a way to get our civilization back onstream again, because we have intellect and a scientific base and will not have to reinvent the wheel. But this thread is about how we will cope within our own lifetimes, to an economic apocalypse serious enough to turn present global equilibrium on its head..
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:48 PM
 
5,416 posts, read 10,368,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
But advanced industrialized populations have not been here for thousands of years.
So which method:

A) Working With Nature, or
B) Fighting Against Nature (i.e., Recent Advanced Industrial)

Seems like the most likely sustainable path?

Quote:
How long will it take to get all those wonderful renewables up and running enough to meet anywhere near our current Heat/AC needs?
Favorite sign on an old Hot Rod shop I recall -- Speed Costs Money, How Fast Can You Afford to Go?

Could start tomorrow if we were in a rush. Could take decades, as well.

Really it is more a choice thing than a speed or technology thing.

You just swap things out as you go.

Same way horses were replaced. One automobile at time.

Quote:
Of course, after a period of time, we will find a way to get our civilization back onstream again, because we have intellect and a scientific base and will not have to reinvent the wheel. But this thread is about how we will cope within our own lifetimes.
If you have to replace a heater or air conditioner -- again, just per your example -- but let's add water heaters, too -- Just replace it with a renewable energy sourced one. Any existing unit only lasts maybe 10 to 40 years, anyway, so in 40 years you could have a full swap out just by attrition.

Look, I agree that we have collectively painted ourselves in a corner. Not that it was all by accident -- some folks on the top made some banks from selling US out, but most of US are too dim or too shy to figure that out and say so.

But to paint yourself out of a corner is the same way you painted yourself in -- Just one step and one brush stroke at a time.
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:06 AM
 
Location: Central CT, sometimes NH.
3,749 posts, read 5,587,507 times
Reputation: 4127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
So which method:

A) Working With Nature, or
B) Fighting Against Nature (i.e., Recent Advanced Industrial)

Seems like the most likely sustainable path?



Favorite sign on an old Hot Rod shop I recall -- Speed Costs Money, How Fast Can You Afford to Go?

Could start tomorrow if we were in a rush. Could take decades, as well.

Really it is more a choice thing than a speed or technology thing.

You just swap things out as you go.

Same way horses were replaced. One automobile at time.



If you have to replace a heater or air conditioner -- again, just per your example -- but let's add water heaters, too -- Just replace it with a renewable energy sourced one. Any existing unit only lasts maybe 10 to 40 years, anyway, so in 40 years you could have a full swap out just by attrition.

Look, I agree that we have collectively painted ourselves in a corner. Not that it was all by accident -- some folks on the top made some banks from selling US out, but most of US are too dim or too shy to figure that out and say so.

But to paint yourself out of a corner is the same way you painted yourself in -- Just one step and one brush stroke at a time.
I agree.

There are many things we can do to upgrade/replace existing systems to save energy. Additionally, many new homes today continue to be built to minimum standards with more money spent on visual upgrades as opposed to the money being spent on greater energy efficiency/reduced consumption.

I recently built a passive solar home with high efficiency heating and cooling systems, quality windows, and super insulated the shell. The energy savings is amazing. My house is using at least 50% less energy than comparable houses in my neighborhood.

I built my previous home to maximize energy efficiency as well. For the price of granite counter tops and stainless steel appliances you can upgrade windows, insulation, as well as heating and cooling systems. Sadly, I have found that few people are willing to pay for these features at the time of sale and instead are looking for the granite counter tops and stainless steel appliances.

Even though people complain about energy costs to heat and cool their home it makes you wonder how committed people actually are to give up something to get it. Many people demonstrate a similar unwillingness to sacrifice superficial comforts over practicality when buying an automobile even when they have limited financial resources.

Last edited by Lincolnian; 07-08-2012 at 06:16 AM..
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