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Old 07-23-2012, 08:52 PM
 
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Link: US poverty on track to rise to highest since 1960s - Yahoo! News

The rise in poverty back to 1960s level indicates that as a country we have regressed. plain and simple!

You can spin all you want but if you have poverty, it will result in crime, drugs and ultimately instability.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:25 PM
 
Location: IN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tampaite View Post
Link: US poverty on track to rise to highest since 1960s - Yahoo! News

The rise in poverty back to 1960s level indicates that as a country we have regressed. plain and simple!

You can spin all you want but if you have poverty, it will result in crime, drugs and ultimately instability.

Much of this goes back to the fact that the US as a whole has been lagging behind in the educational attainment department. Other countries have been gaining on us at a much faster rate. Factor in that issue, the loss of jobs in many areas of the country on a huge percentage basis that can't be made up, and a sharp rise in single parent households as a total percentage of households (often linked to higher poverty rates, but not always as that would be pigenholing it). Some regions of the US have very high levels of poverty that have roots in 1) Poor educational attainment 2)Very poor economy with few good paying jobs 3) Very high rate of drug use 4)High Teen Birth Rate 5)High rate of crime that often gets underreported.
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:06 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
31,439 posts, read 70,197,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
Much of this goes back to the fact that the US as a whole has been lagging behind
in the educational attainment department...
...for the extra 30-40 Million people we don't really have jobs for anyway.
The rest? They're doing pretty well actually.

Quote:
Some regions of the US have very high levels of poverty that have roots in
1) Poor educational attainment (see above)
2)Very poor economy with few good paying jobs (see above)
4)High Teen Birth Rate (see above)
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:27 PM
 
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Best days are ahead of us. We have not had a recession in a few years. Stock market has done very well since March of 2009.
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:06 AM
 
2,191 posts, read 4,411,782 times
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45 Million people currently on food stamps, U.S. Postal Service on verge of bankruptcy, high unemployment due to technological improvements & outsourcing, biggest U.S. city to date just declared bankruptcy a couple weeks ago with more following, some cities giving employees minimum wage, over 16 TRILLION in national debt without even factoring in the extra 50-60 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities like medicare, medicare, federal pensions, increasing rates of vacancy on rentals (as high as 20% in some areas like Orlando), Europe on the verge of financial collapse with very high potential to impact the U.S. very negatively, the Lieborgate scandal about to implode on some large U.S. banks, etc... But other than that stuff, yeah we're in pretty good shape.
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:36 AM
 
742 posts, read 885,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
Much of this goes back to the fact that the US as a whole has been lagging behind in the educational attainment department. Other countries have been gaining on us at a much faster rate. Factor in that issue, the loss of jobs in many areas of the country on a huge percentage basis that can't be made up, and a sharp rise in single parent households as a total percentage of households (often linked to higher poverty rates, but not always as that would be pigenholing it). Some regions of the US have very high levels of poverty that have roots in 1) Poor educational attainment 2)Very poor economy with few good paying jobs 3) Very high rate of drug use 4)High Teen Birth Rate 5)High rate of crime that often gets underreported.
This. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Add to that, the lack of affordable, universal healthcare (we desperately need a single payer system implemented) and the astronomical and completely unrealistic cost of attaining higher education and you have a perfect storm of keeping people trapped in a horrible cycle of vicious poverty. We need to fix these two things, immediately.

And on top of all that, we spend billions upon billions on military spending (A LOT, if not most, of which is completely unnecessary) and our government galavants around the world playing 'policeman' instead of trying to fix the extremely pressing problems that we are facing here at home. It seems to me that the problems just keep accumulating and getting worse and worse all the time. It truly blows my mind why we the people and our government can't seem to understand the fact that we desperately need to start working on the VERY severe problems that we have here instead of looking at the rest of the world constantly.Most other rich nations' governments are content trying to better the lives of their citizens, but ours just seems bent on this stupid industrial superpower complex.

I love the US so much and I wish I could just magically solve all of our problems, but sometimes I really wonder about our nation and its future.

And, perhaps the scariest thing of all, is that the vast majority of people either don't seem to care at all or are simply too ignorant to know what's going on........
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:54 AM
 
28,833 posts, read 31,509,733 times
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First, I will say I am glad the out of wedlock birth rate was mentioned. Something like 41% of children are now born to unmarried parents. You simply can't have a 41% out of wedlock birth rate and expect to have low poverty. Even the New York Times recently pointed this out (and they are hardly a right wing outfit):

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/us...?_r=1&emc=eta1

It's just my opinion, but it seems America's middle class abandoned what I'd call the "middle class values" of thrift and not having kids without being married...just when we needed to hold onto those values the most.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CityLover9 View Post
Add to that, the lack of affordable, universal healthcare (we desperately need a single payer system implemented)
I agree with the problem, but not the proposed solution. We should get rid of insurance altogether. That would eliminate 1/3 of our health care costs right off that bat. Plus, it would introduce something to our health care system that it hasn't had in more than 50 years: REAL COMPETITION.

If the government was so good at managing health care costs, it would have proven it with Medicare/Medicaid. Yet for decades, Medicare/Medicaid costs have skyrocketed right along with privately funded health care costs.

I think the real problem is people can't envision a world without health insurance. So many people think that would somehow make us "uncivilized" etc. What it would actually do is reduce costs for everyone and make health care more affordable and accountable to health care consumers. It would also make consumers more aware of the true cost of health care and the true cost of their unhealthy lifestyle choices...It's primarily unhealthy lifestyle choices that are driving up costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CityLover9 View Post
and the astronomical and completely unrealistic cost of attaining higher education and you have a perfect storm of keeping people trapped in a horrible cycle of vicious poverty. We need to fix these two things, immediately.
No doubt about that. College is increasingly becoming less and less worthwhile. Student loans have masked the problem for 20 years, but now the colleges are going to have to totally rethink the way they do things. The status quo is simply not affordable any more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CityLover9 View Post
And on top of all that, we spend billions upon billions on military spending (A LOT, if not most, of which is completely unnecessary) and our government galavants around the world playing 'policeman' instead of trying to fix the extremely pressing problems that we are facing here at home. It seems to me that the problems just keep accumulating and getting worse and worse all the time. It truly blows my mind why we the people and our government can't seem to understand the fact that we desperately need to start working on the VERY severe problems that we have here instead of looking at the rest of the world constantly.Most other rich nations' governments are content trying to better the lives of their citizens, but ours just seems bent on this stupid industrial superpower complex.
To an extent I agree with you, although I think your point is overstated. Most of the problems we have at home are social issues that can not be easily solved simply by spending more money. Much of the problem is that our government doesn't spend our tax money wisely...whether we're talking about the military OR social programs...it's pretty much bloated and wasteful any which way you want to look at it.

I think it's time we get out of this either/or mindset that I see so prevalent on the CD boards. The liberal folks think we can fix everything by cutting military spending but they don't admit much social spending is actually just a band-aid that does nothing to solve the underlying problems. The conservatives see the waste in social spending, but turn a blind eye to any and all bloat in the military.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CityLover9 View Post
I love the US so much and I wish I could just magically solve all of our problems, but sometimes I really wonder about our nation and its future.
And, perhaps the scariest thing of all, is that the vast majority of people either don't seem to care at all or are simply too ignorant to know what's going on........[/quote]

I hear 'ya. I think the problem we have is that a lot of people do care but they think only their pet solutions will work and that everyone else is "wrong". Everyone sees this trait in the people they disagree with, but never in themselves.

I am totally with you on the complacency/ignorance thing. I think our biggest problem is complacency. I see it in everything we do. How did we let ourselves get to the point where 68% of us are overweight and 1/3 of us are obese? How is it that we just seem to have kids in any 'ol random fashion these days and expect that we can give them (and ourselves) decent lives, materially and otherwise? How is is that so many people don't even bother to read the news (let alone critique the news coverage we get)? Honestly, it just seems like we've lost our sense of discipline in so many different ways.
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:26 AM
 
2,091 posts, read 1,328,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Info Guy View Post
Best days are ahead of us. We have not had a recession in a few years. Stock market has done very well since March of 2009.
Actually, the best days are behind us. We had a good run after WW2. But now one part of the world has completely rebuild (Europe) and the other has Caught Up rapidly with us (BRIC). It's time to face reality. But looking at the state of politics in this country, I don't see how it is governable anymore. I see a breakup of the Union in it's long-term future.
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:38 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
31,439 posts, read 70,197,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsjustmeagain View Post
Actually, the best days are behind us. We had a good run after WW2. But now one part of the world has completely rebuild (Europe) and the other has Caught Up rapidly with us (BRIC). It's time to face reality. But looking at the state of politics in this country, I don't see how it is governable anymore. I see a breakup of the Union in it's long-term future.
We're overburdened with people, the obligations of common decency toward those people, and an
infrastructure meant for a level of productivity (and population) we neither need or really even want.

Anyone who is old enough remembers what their city or state looked like before the farms were
plowed under to make room for new highways with mega malls and homes along those routes.
If you aren't old enough then dig out some old road maps and photographs.

Aside from creating bedrooms for those people to sleep in, and Target and WalMart stores
for those people to shop in, and those little industrial parks where their insurance agent
and dentist have their offices... what genuinely productive thing has been created
(that didn't exist elsewhere tyvm) that isn't predicated on nothing more than serving
the needs of that additional 70-100 million people that didn't exist before?

That people were able to "make a living" or even a career off this activity over the last forty years
is not the same as them actually creating anything of value beyond this service to the personal needs
of other persons.

It's a cycle of feeding on itself, shuffling nickles between pockets, not creating anything beyond itself.

Of note: in the the prior eras...
200 Million or so Americans were doing just fine without the additional help.

1940 132,000,000
1950 150,000,000
1960 179,000,000
1970 203,000,000 <---
1980 226,000,000
1990 248,000,000
2000 281,000,000
2012 308,000,000

Last edited by MrRational; 07-24-2012 at 07:58 AM..
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:46 AM
 
742 posts, read 885,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
I agree with the problem, but not the proposed solution. We should get rid of insurance altogether. That would eliminate 1/3 of our health care costs right off that bat. Plus, it would introduce something to our health care system that it hasn't had in more than 50 years: REAL COMPETITION.

If the government was so good at managing health care costs, it would have proven it with Medicare/Medicaid. Yet for decades, Medicare/Medicaid costs have skyrocketed right along with privately funded health care costs.

I think the real problem is people can't envision a world without health insurance. So many people think that would somehow make us "uncivilized" etc. What it would actually do is reduce costs for everyone and make health care more affordable and accountable to health care consumers. It would also make consumers more aware of the true cost of health care and the true cost of their unhealthy lifestyle choices...It's primarily unhealthy lifestyle choices that are driving up costs.
Respectfully, I have to disagree and stand by my initial solution of single payer system being the best option.

Even if we got rid of all insurance, as you suggested, and prices dropped, there still would be a substantial amount of people who wouldn't be able to afford/obtain proper health care. We still wouldn't have universal health care in the US, which is what we desparatley need to help break the vicious cycle of poverty (for some) in this country. Having a UHC would greatly benefit the country and then we could just put all of that malarky behind us for good. For me personally, on a fundamental and moral basis, I believe that health care is a basic human right and that everyone is entitled to it. We need to cover everyone and the best way forward, imho, is single payer. Single payer is proven to be one of the most (if not the most) cost-effective and efficient form of providing universal health care. We would cover everyone and we would save a lot of money in the process. Single payer works in my opinion, based off of my experinces living in a myriad counties around the world for years. Surveys have shown that the majority of Americans support the idea of UHC, it's just the way of going about it that gets really sticky (Ex: the Obamacare mandate). Plus, I think single payer is the direction that we're slowly heading in, eventually. But, everyone's entitled to their opinion, and if you disgree then that's fine, and we can respectfully agree to disagree. I'm not trying to make it sound as if I think a single payer system is the only solution, but it's just that I feel that it's the best overall solution. But people may disagree, and that's okay with me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
No doubt about that. College is increasingly becoming less and less worthwhile. Student loans have masked the problem for 20 years, but now the colleges are going to have to totally rethink the way they do things. The status quo is simply not affordable any more.
Agreed 100%. The status quo is simply not affordable nor sustainable anymore and something has to break sooner or later. And BELIEVE me, as a 20 year old college student myself, this is an issue that hits a nerve close to home for me. I'm extremely fortunate that my parents are able to pay for my education for me, but I know that not (nearly) everyone is so fortunate and I understand and see the burden that many people are under. Things have got to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
To an extent I agree with you, although I think your point is overstated. Most of the problems we have at home are social issues that can not be easily solved simply by spending more money. Much of the problem is that our government doesn't spend our tax money wisely...whether we're talking about the military OR social programs...it's pretty much bloated and wasteful any which way you want to look at it.

I think it's time we get out of this either/or mindset that I see so prevalent on the CD boards. The liberal folks think we can fix everything by cutting military spending but they don't admit much social spending is actually just a band-aid that does nothing to solve the underlying problems. The conservatives see the waste in social spending, but turn a blind eye to any and all bloat in the military.
I actually agree with you to a large extent here as well. I don't think I made my initial point as precisely as I would have liked and didn't expound upon it as much as I should have. Please allow me to further explain. First off, BINGO! You absolutely hit the nail on the head with your assertion that the gov't doesn't spend our tax money wisely. I absolutely cannot agree any more. Secondly, let me say I agree with you that the problem stems FAR beyond just military spending as well, and leads us into whole areas of inefficiency ranging from welfare/social programs, to a whole wide variety of things, etc. etc. As I said, I definitely do think that we need to cut military spending quite drastically at this time, but I definitely also think that we need to reform the welfare/social programs system as well. Now, I definitely believe in a well-developed social safety net, definitely, but our current system needs some MAJOR fixing. I don't think anyone could argue that the current system is proving to be uber effective or efficient (both in terms of cost and results). It has almost become more of a hinderance rather than a help. So, yeah, just to re-cap, I didn't want to make it sound so "partisan" perhaps and say, only cut military spending, etc. etc. because while I think that's a big issue, I think that a lot of our problems also stem from things a lot more than that as well (including social programs as well as a plethora of other things which I won't get into). So, yes, I essentially agree with you, at least to an extent.

I also agree that C-D, as well as the whole country has become FAR too partisan and it's becoming a HUGE detriment to the country. Instead of compromising and doing what's best for the country and the American people, both sides are bascially digging their stupid heels into the ground and saying that it's either my way or the highway. As a result, we have the political turmoil that we have now. And anyone who blames the "other side" completly is beyond naive and out of touch with reality, imho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
I hear 'ya. I think the problem we have is that a lot of people do care but they think only their pet solutions will work and that everyone else is "wrong". Everyone sees this trait in the people they disagree with, but never in themselves.

I am totally with you on the complacency/ignorance thing. I think our biggest problem is complacency. I see it in everything we do. How did we let ourselves get to the point where 68% of us are overweight and 1/3 of us are obese? How is it that we just seem to have kids in any 'ol random fashion these days and expect that we can give them (and ourselves) decent lives, materially and otherwise? How is is that so many people don't even bother to read the news (let alone critique the news coverage we get)? Honestly, it just seems like we've lost our sense of discipline in so many different ways.
Again, agreed 100%. You make some very true and undeniable statements here, absolutely no doubt. And don't get me started on the obesity/ overweight issue! I've already had that battle with people in the Diet and Weight loss forum (even though I'm in good shape myself).

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsjustmeagain View Post
Actually, the best days are behind us. We had a good run after WW2. But now one part of the world has completely rebuild (Europe) and the other has Caught Up rapidly with us (BRIC). It's time to face reality. But looking at the state of politics in this country, I don't see how it is governable anymore. I see a breakup of the Union in it's long-term future.
I'm not so sure about this. Everything goes in cycles. Sometimes things are really good, and sometimes things are really bad. Now, I'm not saying that we're in a rosy position, we're definitely not, but I wouldn't write us off so quickly. Things change so rapidly and no one knows what the future holds. Don't throw in the towel just yet. And the thing is, it's not just us who's in the crapper either. The EU is turning into a disaster between Greece, Spain, and Italy. Their demographics are horrific and their growth is actually non-existent right now (they're in another recession). Their chances of collapsing and taking the whole thing down are very real. Canada is at the same place we are bascially with a housing bubble crisis that is about to burst. Japan is still in its lost decades (another one with abysmal demographics). Brazil is actually forecast to grow slower than the US in 2012. And China and India are also slowing quite dramatically (relatively speaking). And I think a lot of the BRIC stuff is very much overrated. Their economies are doing well, no denying that, but the reason that they're growing at the rates that they are is because they're poor and underdeveloped countries. They will slow as they get bigger, undoubtedly. Plus, countries like China (housing bubbles, cooking the books, lying officals and numbers) and India (caste system still a huge detrimental issue, vast majority of the country earns less than $1.25 a day and lives in complete poverty unlike anything remotely close to the Western "poverty",huge illerate population, and massive overcrowding issues, which are only going to get worse) have MASSIVE problems too and they have very real chances of running into major problems themselves. They have so many things to overcome simply to be considered "developed" that it's not even funny. Middle income trap is something that comes to mind. Also, they haven't remotely caught up to us, imo. In what? Certainly not living standards, that's for sure. Even if China's and India's overall economy passes ours, they will still be poor, underdeveloped countries. Even look at some GDP per capita predictions for 2050 and they're still far behind the West here. And those predictions are quite generous, imo. They may have bigger economies eventually (which, news flash, they should have considering the ridiculous size of their populations, but they will be in no way wealthier than us). These countries are still countries of emigration and don't have nearly the draw or "soft power" of the West. I really don't think that they've overtaken us at all. Heck, the only country that's doing well is Australia and their mining boom which is the only thing sustaining their economy is predicted to end in the next 2-3 years. Even with all this disaster, the US is going to grow by 2% this year. Not really good, but not too bad considering what's going on in the rest of the world. But, I agree that we definietly need to re-think our place in the world and focus a bit more on us (economic growth, poverty, debt, etc.), at least for the time being.

And I don't think that splitting up the country is ever going to happen (or work), so I wouldn't give too much thought or worry to that.

Last edited by CityLover9; 07-24-2012 at 12:57 PM..
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