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Old 08-04-2012, 11:37 PM
 
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Economics and politics are woven together once someone gets past chapter three in a micro and macro course.

The more economic restrictions there are, the more authoritarian the government must be, up to the point of North Korea and beyond. It is no coincidence that the more economic restrictions there are, the more repressive the government needs to be.
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Old 08-05-2012, 02:14 AM
 
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How about the Democratic Socialism idea?

ie: what was performed recently in Sweden, and the UK of the 1970's.

could that perhaps be tweaked and re-invented, to work well?
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Old 08-05-2012, 08:28 AM
 
Location: NJ/NY
15,461 posts, read 12,077,896 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda View Post
How about the Democratic Socialism idea?

ie: what was performed recently in Sweden, and the UK of the 1970's.

could that perhaps be tweaked and re-invented, to work well?
Perhapse it could work well, I dont know, but that is the argument at the heart of American politics. To be more socialistic vs more individualistic. What is the perfect balance?

Our culture is geared toward individualism. Some might even say that our individualism is largely responsible for the reason we excell in creativity, imagination and inventiveness that can be seen on Wall Street, in Hollywood, Silicon Valley, etc. Whether that is true or not is arguable, but what is not arguable is that what you propose would require a major cultural shift in America. Some Americans want us to be more like Europe, while many others do not.

Last edited by AnesthesiaMD; 08-05-2012 at 08:58 AM..
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Old 08-05-2012, 10:40 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
31,399 posts, read 69,973,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
Our culture is geared toward individualism.
Meh. Our culture is no more geared toward individualism than any western nation.

Where we're unique among almost all nations is the geographical condition that made it superbly
simple to expand and pursue and literally reinvent the individual. Often... several times and serially
within a lifetime as various efforts failed. Pack up and move on; maybe even with a new name.

Getting back to the culture... that is also uniquely influenced by the geography.
Beginning with the several colonies our ancestors repeated that pattern of colonial expansion
across the entire continent with the benefit of a fairly common set of laws and politics. Despite
what commonalities that existed (and still largely exist today) these were all able to grow and
expand as fairly independent entities -sometimes within state lines- but mostly by region.

Quote:
Some Americans want us to be more like Europe while many others do not.
Even within Europe there is rather less cultural homogenization than in the US.

What political and economic models suit the people and culture in Norway is different from
what will suit the people and culture in a relatively close neighbor like Germany...
let alone suit the people and culture of their same continent but quite distant Greece.

All that said... there is clear evidence that the regional differences that continue to exist nearly 300
years since their (by necessity) practical origination and over 200 years since their (by choice)
political origination... these differences in approach to addressing, solving or just administering
common issues and problems create more legal, economic and political havoc than they solve.
Their time has passed.

Last edited by MrRational; 08-05-2012 at 11:42 AM..
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:58 AM
 
27,997 posts, read 36,119,500 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda View Post
How about the Democratic Socialism idea?

ie: what was performed recently in Sweden, and the UK of the 1970's.

could that perhaps be tweaked and re-invented, to work well?
We've already had that party in America between 1850 - 1950 and America utterly rejected those ideas.

Quote:
Freedom & Equality
Democratic socialism is a political and economic system with freedom and equality for all, so that people may develop to their fullest potential in harmony with others. The Socialist Party is committed to full freedom of speech, assembly, press, and religion, and to a multi-party system. We are dedicated to the abolition of male supremacy and class society, and to the elimination of all forms of oppression, including those based on race, national origin, age, sexual preferences, and disabling conditions.

Production For Use, Not For Profit
In a socialist system the people own and control the means of production and distribution through democratically controlled public agencies, cooperatives, or other collective groups. The primary goal of economic activity is to provide the necessities of life, including food, shelter, health care, education, child care, cultural opportunities, and social services.
Principles - Socialist Party USA

In other words we want you to become the lowest common denominator and to hell with your dreams and ambitions.
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Old 08-05-2012, 12:42 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
We've already had that party in America between 1850 - 1950 and America utterly rejected those ideas.
Quote:
the abolition of male supremacy and class society, and to the elimination of all forms of oppression, including those based on race, national origin, age, sexual preferences, and disabling conditions.

...to provide the necessities of life, including food, shelter, health care, education, child care, cultural opportunities, and social services.
Hmmm.
From here it looks like the only thing rejected (utterly or otherwise)...
is the banner under which most of these very basic tenets of human decency were made to happen.
Because (just in case you haven't noticed) they have almost all happened.
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Old 08-05-2012, 10:01 PM
 
5,616 posts, read 9,908,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda View Post
How about the Democratic Socialism idea?

ie: what was performed recently in Sweden, and the UK of the 1970's.

could that perhaps be tweaked and re-invented, to work well?
Conceptually it just doesn't work. Here's the thing, as much as many rail against government run health care, it is very effective economically. The care may not be perfect, but from an efficiency standpoint its hard to argue against its ability to deliver. The interesting thing about that is all these other countries sort of justify their higher tax rates on government run healthcare which really doesn't have to be true. Taxes would go up somewhat, but businesses and citizens wouldn't be burdened with high healthcare costs and in the end virtually everyone would gain and the economy would be strengthened. However to the citizenry who does the voting, health care costs are not really transparent to them so all they know is taxes are going up and I got health care already so I'm getting screwed.

And in truth this is what bogs down a lot of common sense changes which could be made to tax rates and deductions. Gains for the economy or society filter down to all, rich and poor, but they aren't easily quantifiable while tax increases are so they just aren't going to happen. Think about traffic and gas/transportation taxes. If consumers paid $1 more per gallon of gas and the money went to reduce traffic through wider roads and more mass transit, the consumer would rail on about how he was getting screwed out of say $20-30 per week. However most people driving in the traffic make at least $20 per hour so if the projects cut down 2 hours they had to spend in their car, they come out ahead in time not wasted on the road. But once again people don't rationally look at it that way. They don't think of their time as having value and they of course don't see the alternative, a more congested highway that adds 4-5 hours a week to their commute time, so to them its an unjust burden.
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:21 PM
 
18,094 posts, read 15,771,216 times
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"If consumers paid $1 more per gallon of gas and the money went to reduce traffic through wider roads and more mass transit, the consumer would rail on about how he was getting screwed out of say $20-30 per week. However most people driving in the traffic make at least $20 per hour so if the projects cut down 2 hours they had to spend in their car, they come out ahead in time not wasted on the road."

Makes no sense, where is the $20/hr coming from? This is assuming during those two hours they could be doing something that makes them $20/hr. Getting to work faster does not make someone more money, they are not getting paid in lieu of sitting in traffic.
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:34 PM
 
18,094 posts, read 15,771,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda View Post
How about the Democratic Socialism idea?

ie: what was performed recently in Sweden, and the UK of the 1970's.

could that perhaps be tweaked and re-invented, to work well?
Given many of your threads and posts, you seem to have a difficult time comprehending why something so good on paper, like socialism (or similar), does not seem to work out when applied in real life. Just my assumption.

A society like Sweden works because the homogeneous nature of their culture, a culture which prides itself in work ethic and carrying ones load; there are few free riders in Swedish society (as compared to the US for example), and Swedes feel their taxes are adding value to their daily lives, not just being re-appropriated to the free loaders. But as you see, Sweden is now under huge economic pressure and in my opinion, it is because of their open door immigration and the new trend among more than a few younger Swedes who do not embrace the former work ethic and culture of their parents and grand parents. This is undermining their tax base and they are being forced to make cuts.

Just my opinion.
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:29 PM
 
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I have a theory that the break-up of the SU is a large factor here as well.

The idealism of the 60's and 70's gradually faded away once people realised that the SU dream did not really work, and hence a general shift in Western Europe away from socialism.

add to that, the new generation that never witnessed WW2 and the decline of religion - all leading to a more 'me' based culture and hence,an economic system of avaricious capitalism.
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