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Old 08-11-2012, 01:04 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
31,341 posts, read 69,519,228 times
Reputation: 37349

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ja1myn View Post
And yeah I agree gwynedd, it is pretty much the population's fault.
There is almost nothing about "it" that is the "populations" fault.
Well, aside from making more and more and more population.

That *is* entirely their fault...
and shall remain the biggest hindrance to growth and success now.
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Old 08-11-2012, 01:18 PM
 
19,337 posts, read 16,935,945 times
Reputation: 7515
Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
Economics go hand to hand with politics. If you don't understand such simple thing - I don't think you should bother with economics at all
Looks like patronizing and insulting your opponents go hand and hand with you. If you had any economics training at all, all you would have had to do is mention economics is a modern term and used to be called political economy. So its quite obvious. Then you would have demonstrated a well rounded knowledge base instead sounding like a 1929 shoe shine boy.
You said "default" not "technical default" which is all about politics, not economics. Go to the political forum if you want to play games. You remind me of the Krugman con where he changed his prescription for a housing bubble in 2002 into a warning. Indeed con artists abound. Sorry, but words mean things and you can't just say apple and then apple tree without changing the meaning.



Quote:

Don't be delirious - devaluation of USD = default.
That is not the definition of a default. You are another one who just decides what he likes words to mean and then tells people that they are wrong when they comply with the accepted meaning of the word. So go ahead and start telling people the US keeps defaulting every day because we have inflation and see how many people don't think you are a lunatic.


Here is the "default" calculator.
Consumer Price Index (CPI)


Search | Investopedia

See anything in there about devaluation cause I don't?

You so much as said drowning in a river and a sponge bath have something to do with water. Thank you for that insight.
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Old 08-11-2012, 01:26 PM
 
19,337 posts, read 16,935,945 times
Reputation: 7515
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
There is almost nothing about "it" that is the "populations" fault.
Well, aside from making more and more and more population.

That *is* entirely their fault...
and shall remain the biggest hindrance to growth and success now.
Of all the economists Henry George refuted soundly, it was Malthus more than any other.

I don't recall a huge population explosion since 2008. If you want to live in reality be my guest and discuss the increase of undesirable externalities with population but it has little to do with hindrances to growth. China and India are growing far faster than we are which really just blows your statement into powder.
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Old 08-11-2012, 01:43 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
31,341 posts, read 69,519,228 times
Reputation: 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
I don't recall a huge population explosion since 2008.
Four years? Why cherry pick that date?

Expand your event horizon if you want to see meaningful influences.
The US has about 100 MILLION more warm bodies today than it did before the changes in the economy began.

One hundred million more to feed clothe house educate tend to their elderly...
and find meaningful productive work for them to pay for all those things on their own.
We're saturated.
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Old 08-11-2012, 01:54 PM
 
19,337 posts, read 16,935,945 times
Reputation: 7515
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Four years? Why cherry pick that date?

Expand your event horizon if you want to see meaningful influences.
The US has about 100 MILLION more warm bodies today than it did before the changes in the economy began.

One hundred million more to feed clothe house educate tend to their elderly...
and find meaningful productive work for them to pay for all those things on their own.
We're saturated.
Do you have a car? Get rid of it because it uses gas and oil.

Oh and tell them to close the patent office.
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Old 08-11-2012, 02:46 PM
 
1,730 posts, read 1,821,169 times
Reputation: 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Looks like patronizing and insulting your opponents go hand and hand with you. If you had any economics training at all, all you would have had to do is mention economics is a modern term and used to be called political economy. So its quite obvious. Then you would have demonstrated a well rounded knowledge base instead sounding like a 1929 shoe shine boy.
Why do righties believe that continiously insulting an opponent may make them win?

Quote:
You said "default" not "technical default" which is all about politics, not economics.
All defaults are political. And lets not succumb into some insane term bashing, and just use the term default - which is the one you seem to understand at least on the surface.

Quote:
That is not the definition of a default.
A dictionary at hand doesn't make you an economist.

In real life, creditors decide if the sovereign defaulted. When the crisis began, Russia considered US defaulting (there was a massive criticism of the government here, after hundreds of billions dollars just vanished from the reserve fund), and dumped much of dollars for a shiny yellow stuff.

China has accused US of defaulting as well.

That what matters, not some definition that you can't even comprehend.

Quote:
So go ahead and start telling people the US keeps defaulting every day because we have inflation and see how many people don't think you are a lunatic.
Econ 101 would have tought you that inflation and devaluation are not used as synonyms

Quote:
Search | Investopedia

See anything in there about devaluation cause I don't?
Try something simpler

Devaluing the Pound Isn

Quote:
To start with, devaluation is not an alternative to sovereign default. When a government decides to devalue, savers who trusted the currency to store their wealth, and creditors who bought bonds denominated in the currency, find the value of their assets cut. That’s sovereign default by a different name.
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Old 08-11-2012, 05:41 PM
 
19,337 posts, read 16,935,945 times
Reputation: 7515
Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
Why do righties believe that continiously insulting an opponent may make them win?
Ah that started with you with your condescension implying I do basic research like I am some idiot. You began the provocation. Want me to show you or do you think you can find it yourself? You do it so unconsciously that you just decided to slap me in some box that you can oppose by calling me a "righty". I have been routinely called both a lefty and a righty, by one group, the group that carelessly flings their accusations and sets up their straw men.

Quote:
All defaults are political. And lets not succumb into some insane term bashing, and just use the term default - which is the one you seem to understand at least on the surface. A dictionary at hand doesn't make you an economist.
Oh I just love this. Lets not get all hung up on words.

No, not all defaults are a political decision. A default can be the inability to pay or the unwillingness to pay. Greeks cannot decide to pay or not to pay in Euros. They can't pay because its a foreign debt and its outside their political authority. The US debt is within it political authority. All they can do is say they won't pay. Lots of people can't pay, and most defaults are that they can't pay.


Quote:
In real life, creditors decide if the sovereign defaulted. When the crisis began, Russia considered US defaulting (there was a massive criticism of the government here, after hundreds of billions dollars just vanished from the reserve fund), and dumped much of dollars for a shiny yellow stuff.
No they don't decide. A debt is a contract and the terms of the contract in this case is more US non interest bearing IOUs at maturity of interest bearing IOUs. You get Federal Reserve notes for treasuries. That's Russia's problem stuffing their mattress with foreign fiat currency. If Russia would deal with its own oligarchs they would not need all the mattress stuffing because they would have a real economy of their own. Oh and don't listen to that swindler Larry Summers next time.

Quote:
China has accused US of defaulting as well.
Then tell them to stop shipping all the cheap junk over here. They can stop anytime they like. Normally when you default on a Macey's credit card they stop selling you crap.

Quote:
That what matters, not some definition that you can't even comprehend.
What matters is your pipe smoke.

Quote:
Econ 101 would have tought you that inflation and devaluation are not used as synonyms
Oh marvelous. How about some context since the whole conversation is about devaluation by increasing the money supply with more US debt. Did you see the OP? See anything up their about debt growth which is the only relevant devaluation? Devaluation is the less specific event that is going on here. It has nothing to do with defaulting either.

But to humor you, there are two (real)ways to devalue a currency. You should know. One way to do it is to give all the wealth of say Russia to a bunch of private oligarchs. Suddenly all that oil and gas is not a national resource and bang, what are these rubles worth now? So what you are saying is someone is going around destroying and or giving away US assets? I believe the discussion of raising the debt ceiling is a devaluation by adding to the money supply. But hey definitions don't matter anyway right so why should I bother...


Quote:
[url="http://www.investopedia.com/search/default.aspx?q=default#axzz23JL0jvnX"]
Try something simpler

Devaluing the Pound Isn

Thanks but Bloomberg is like Soviet media to me. I'll read it anyway later.


Hey you want to have something a lot like a structured default as properly applied in economics? That's the nice thing about being da guberment. They can decide that owning people junk they never should have in the first place is stupid. So its simple. Stop creating liabilities by law, cancel all the socialist medicine, and shift the tax base to assets and off labor.


And lastly the US is not weakening the currency with its fiscal policy. The deficits are doing little more than offsetting private deleveraging. Try down the road at the FED and ZIRP which is engaging in a currency war fueled by I believe a deliberate sacking of the domestic economy. Its the investment banks trying to stuff the BRICK countries. Try reading about Scottish free banking and the currency war between the Bank of Scotland and the Royal bank of Scotland. Then you would see the real problem.

Last edited by gwynedd1; 08-11-2012 at 06:06 PM..
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Old 08-11-2012, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Atlanta & NYC
6,616 posts, read 12,423,317 times
Reputation: 6624
Jeez you guys take this pretty far. I'm gonna just sit back and watch and try to retain all this.
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Old 08-11-2012, 06:04 PM
 
1,730 posts, read 1,821,169 times
Reputation: 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Ah that started with you with your condescension implying I do basic research like I am some idiot.
Not an idiot, but a person, who doesn't know basics. This says enough: "Explain how any country can default in its own fiat currency." Alternatively - you follow some ideology, that doesn't let you accept that this is not only possible, but happened quite a few times.

Quote:
No, Not all defaults are political. A default can be the inability to pay or the unwillingness to pay. Greeks cannot decide to pay or not to pay in Euros. They can't pay because its a foreign debt and its outside their political authority.
If you look at pre-default days only - sure... to some extent - because Greece can, e.g. make some sale, and repay the debt.

But it's politics that brought the country there.

Quote:
No they don't decide. A debt is a contract
Sovereign default is totally different from personal in the lack of court overseer. Basically, US is under no obligation to repay anything to Russia, China, and others. But it will face consequences for not doing it.

The consequences are solely to the creditors (current and future) - which is why they decide, whether the sovereign defaulted or not.

Quote:
That's Russia's problem stuffing their mattress with foreign fiat currency.

Then tell them to stop shipping all the cheap junk over here. They can stop anytime they like.
Sure, but it's your problem, if they stop buying your treasuries junk

Quote:
Thanks but Bloomberg is like Soviet media to me. I'll read it anyway later.
What I quoted is hard to deny.

Quote:
And lastly the US is not weakening the currency with its fiscal policy. The deficits are doing little more than offsetting private deleveraging.
Print money not backed by anything --> it loses value. Use foreign loans to keep inflation in check... that's what Russia did prior to 1998...
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Old 08-11-2012, 06:23 PM
 
19,337 posts, read 16,935,945 times
Reputation: 7515
Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
Not an idiot, but a person, who doesn't know basics. This says enough: "Explain how any country can default in its own fiat currency." Alternatively - you follow some ideology, that doesn't let you accept that this is not only possible, but happened quite a few times.
I don't know the basics? What basics? I can make as many IUOs as I like. Ask for any amount of my personal IOUs as you like. I can pay. How many would you like? Its a fiat currency. We are not going to default. We defaulted in 1971.

Are you still worried about when we defaulted?


Nixon Ends Bretton Woods International Monetary System - YouTube


You know why we defaulted? Cause we were not alchemists. We are when it comes to US fiat currency.
It was when the world understood the US was on a flying lead standard.

Quote:
If you look at pre-default days only - sure... to some extent - because Greece can, e.g. make some sale, and repay the debt.
They cannot just politically decide not to default. They had to default. They are not the authority. A normal default is not in its own authority.

Quote:
But it's politics that brought the country there.
They didn't consult me when I thought at the time the Euro was a very bad idea.

Quote:
Sovereign default is totally different from personal in the lack of court overseer. Basically, US is under no obligation to repay anything to Russia, China, and others. But it will face consequences for not doing it.
Debt in what? There is no such thing a s generic debt.

* debt to self
* debt to brother
* debt to relative
* foreign debt
* debt in commodity you have in abundance like Cyprus having a copper debt.
* debt in a commodity
* debt in your currency
* debt in their currency
* debt in 3rd party currency

And on and on it goes. The US cannot be forced to default in its own fiat currency.

Quote:
The consequences are solely to the creditors (current and future) - which is why they decide, whether the sovereign defaulted or not.
Not going to happen. Even if the USD died there would be no debt, only the change in credit terms.

Quote:
Sure, but it's your problem, if they stop buying your treasuries junk
Then you don't read many of my posts.

Quote:
What I quoted is hard to deny.
You deny dictionaries so you are one to talk. Who denied anything, and I'll be glad to see if its junk economics later.

Quote:
Print money not backed by anything --> it loses value. Use foreign loans to keep inflation in check... that's what Russia did prior to 1998...
Silver mines discovered in Peru made the European main currency, silver lose value. What's your point?

Last edited by gwynedd1; 08-11-2012 at 06:31 PM..
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